Lions on the menu

The following is the unedited postings (except for the addition of bolding some of their sentences) of members of the Phoenix Exotics group who are exotic pet owners, dealers and users who are opposed to anything that would take away their "right" to use any animal any way they want. It is interesting to read in their own words that they believe lions should be farmed as food and tigers should be farmed for their parts because that would create markets for the animals' parts that would protect their personal freedom to make pets and photo props out of them. It is also encouraging to see that they know society has come to condemn their lifestyle.

#61510 From: catmanwho@...Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:51 pm Subject: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? catmanwho2000


Check this out???? I know it is on BCR's site but scroll down, after clicking on
the link, a little, and you will see the Lion on the diners outside menu board.
Catmanwho


From: "Jen" turandot478@...To: WildCats_@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:43:52 +0000

Oh no, I had to see this...it is another article about the lion on the menu in Florida. (Scroll down a little to see the story about the lion and others as food.)

http://www.bigcatrescue.org/laws/2008/captivewil danimalrules.htm

Also on that page are contact numbers for Florida government officials to tell them how outraged you are and that there should be laws stopping this mess.

Jen

#61511 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:27 am Subject: RE: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy

Hell...I'd vote for supporting adding them to the menu. Will get more
people on our side for breeding/keeping them in captivity. So long as they
are humanely raised, why not?


Post message: Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com

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#61513 From: "David Holt" kc0tlv@...Date: Mon Sep 1, 2008 7:55 pm Subject: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? shasaritiger

I'm sure that there are some that would say yes, and others would say "
Hell No... ".

Well I fall into the latter category. I have my own reasons for
finding this rather disturbing - you don't have to think like me - but
damn, no way could I eat part of a member of a cat species I have
worked around - I find this rather distasteful to say the least ...

Great - let's start seeing all wildlife as food - gee maybe we can push
some more species toward extinction. I know, you say "raise them for
food, farm them for food" ... sorry but I take exception to that ...
and then it just makes the whole species turn into a commodity ...

Anyway, just my .02c - again you don't have to think like me, but I
could not read something like that without voicing my opinions ...

David


#61514 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 1:30 pm Subject: RE: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy

That's the problem with carnivorous eating habits. Something has to die.
While I wouldn't choose to eat Lion or any other cat species, it does seem a
little hypocritical to selectively ban/legislate one species while having
books of 'standards of care' for other species. If the concept of captively
breeding/raising Lions for food is wrong, why is such a practice acceptable
for cows? How about chickens? Pigs? Duck? Buffalo? Alligator? Fish?

What is the problem with making the species a commodity? Even if the typical
outcome is death, or if you prefer a more graphic term, slaughter, the
majority of the commercial product would be provided from commercial
enterprises and the surplus of both skins and other parts would put a pretty
stiff kink in the poaching situation.

Now don't get me wrong, I would prefer to see these animals alive, but more
and more they are being legislated out of existence. I find it hard not to
at least consider any reasonable methods to increase the value of
maintaining a healthy population of these animals. Zoos are not cutting it,
private efforts are getting legislated out of existence, many of the
countries these species are native to are struggling to take care of their
citizens, meaning the natural resources take a very low priority.

Right now you have species that ultimately serve no purpose in a world
dominated by humans. Heck many species of these animals are seen as a
nuisance/threat by people living near/around them. "The only good _____ is
a dead _____" mentality. Buffalo used to be seen that way, until people
realized that Buffalo were actually a very good source of food. I don't see
the difference in the concept. I'm also not suggesting that any legislation
be changed regarding the hunting/harvesting/etc of the wild variant. My
comments are specifically aimed at a farmed product. An industry with the
same basic principles as any other animal farming industry. Basic standards
of care specific to the species, humane treatment both while alive and
slaughter method.

Not a new concept.

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#61515 From: "David Holt" kc0tlv@...Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 10:11 pm
Subject: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? shasaritiger

For the most part, I'm vegetarian by conscious choice simply because A: it's healthier and B: because there are some very tasty veggie recipies.

No, no worries, I'm not with PETA - trust me on that - they are a bunch of wackies who would rather see tigers go extinct than preserved in captivity by zoos and knowledgable private owners – kind of twisted view if you ask me ... but enough of that - I'm sure you all know the idiocies of peta types ...

It's just, at least from where I stand, I could not consider an animal with which I have bonded (or with it's species) as a source of food. Not very respectful. I'm sure there are some who considers cows as pets, chickens as pets etc. But, if you ask me, lions are more intelligent than your average chicken - or at least they seem to have greater intelligence - no I've not given a lion an IQ test side by side with a chicken - it just seems that way. Perhaps I'm anthropomorphisizing the cats - but I don't think of them as little 4 footed humans - so I don't think I'm doing that too much anyway.

It's sort of like this for me - I respect the lion as a species. I also very much respect tigers as well - and I shudder to think of either of them as a food item ... I would not eat a restaraunt that served up lion on the menu ... period.

And, let me remind you, I am not trying to convince anyone - this is a forum for sharing ideas and points of view and I'm just noting mine - I'm not forcing you to think like I do - and conversely I
don't think you are forcing me to think your way - won't happen anyway so might as well save your breath ... :-)

Dave


#61523 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:55 am Subject: RE: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy

Never was Dave, just wanted to offer a counterpoint for the sake of discussion, and perhaps attempt to shed a little light on why I said what I did. Understanding doesn't have to mean agreement. I would hope we can find a better solution than having to resort to making them a food commodity.


From: hoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Holt
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 10:12 PM
To: Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Phoenix_Exotics] Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu?

And, let me remind you, I am not trying to convince anyone - this is a forum for sharing ideas and points of view and I'm just noting mine - I'm not forcing you to think like I do - and conversely I don't think you are forcing me to think your way - won't happen anyway so might as well save your breath ... :-)

Dave


#61518 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 10:52 pm Subject: RE: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1

Robert, my idea for a long time has been to make animals useful to humans in
every possible way. This includes as food, as sources of useful materials, as
companions, and maybe even as building material. The point of this idea is to
make it so that humans raise and keep as many of each species as possible. We
don't have to sit in mud and our own fecal matter, in rags, like a lot of people
in Asia do. We are actually better off prosperous, as a dependable source of
food, in an industrial society that actually generates less pollution per person
than does a pre-industrial society.


#61530 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:12 pm Subject: RE: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1

I am going to presume that they are. Americans are very concerned about the
humane treatment of animals, to a fault. That fault is that we are easily led
to be angry at certain offenders rather than contribute to better care. This is
why the activists have the power to take animals away from people who they know are taking good care of them.


#61517 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 10:40 pm Subject: Re: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1

And I happen to think that that makes no sense at all.

--- On Mon, 9/1/08, David Holt kc0tlv@... wrote:

#61521 From: lyon@...Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 3:45 pmSubject: Re: Lion on the Menu? nakobi_99

I'm going through our tour speech in my head for our lions, and I'm thinking that after all the talk about how beautiful and majestic the lions are, and even answering some questions about their brutal nature in the wild, I'd never end my talk with "...and if you want to know what they taste like, there's this restaurant..."

I'm trying to foster an educated respect for big cats in people. I can help them understand that a lion is not a grown up tiger, and that tigers are not female lions because they have stripes, and that lionesses are not grown up tigers that have lost their stripes just like cougars lose their spots. I'm not sure how much of this same learning is imparted while eating a lion. I'm also not sure how much respect for the species is instilled via their taste. Maybe they really ARE that tasty, but I'm going to venture a guess that the people coming out of that restaurant are no more informed about big cats in the wild than before they went in. I could be wrong; the restaurant might put out doilies with educational messages on them.

As for farming big cats, the cats would soon be devolved into whatever was necessary to serve the economics of that market. (This is especially true of the pet market, too.) Just the same as we now have farm animals that bear little if any resemblance to a wild counterpart--if one even exists. Fur farming would result in nontraditional coat patterns to serve the ever-changing needs of fashion. In the end, we would end up with an animal that is a hazy simulacrum of its wild cousin. I'm not at all bashing farming industry in any way, I'm just explaining the reality of the market.

Most importantly, this isn't economically feasible, which makes it feel like some sort of gimmick. We had the same thing happen at "Top o' The Cove" restaurant back in the late 90's. It's a great example of a divide and conquer topic much like abortion and free speech are in mainstream politics. Try not to fall into this emotional trap.

Personally, though, I disagree strongly with it, I think i t's a publicity stunt aimed at profiting from the death of a lion, nothing more. Goes against pretty much every reason I started working with big cats.

But should they outlaw it? Nope.

On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 07:40:45PM -0700, Thomas Kirby wrote:
And I happen to think that that makes no sense at all.


Anyway, just my .02c - again you don't have to think like me, but I could not read something like that without voicing my opinions ...

David


#61522 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 11:45 pm Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1

Did you notice the part where David Holt implies that the animals are better off
dead than treated as a commodity? There is little difference between saying
that about lions and saying that about cattle.

Lions and tigers are already valued commodities. The various ways that they are
valuable to humans contributed greatly to their survival until the so-called conservationists and so-called animal rights activists started all of this crooked politicking. Now they use every dirty trick that there is to devalue the animals that are in human hands and to reserve possession only for elite organizations and individuals. This reduces the potential population of lions and tigers by thousands of animals. When they are a commodity their population continually increases. Under the control of the animal rights and conservation interests, their population will continually dwindle, and the AR/conservationists will attempt to justify this by using specious arguments like "they're not purebred."

They are already doing the same crap with dogs and horses.

The so-called humane societies, animal rights groups, and conservationists have
no qualms at all about profiting from the deaths of animals. The anti-ownership
movement does little but profit from the deaths of animals.

I am trying to get some people who can understand this to take in the idea of
making commodities of the animals. When the animals proliferate through human-controlled spaces their futures are much more secure. Leave them out in
the "wild" as nuisance animals that attack villages and villagers all over the globe and eventually the villagers will get sick of it and kill as many of them as they can just to stop getting killed. Pets are a lot safer to have around.


#61534 From: lyon@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 3:49 pm Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? nakobi_99

I agree that things are bad for private ownership. And back to the main point: I don't believe that putting a lion on the dinner table will solve this problem.

And the AR has sung that same tune for years now: death is better than slavery. It's nothing new. People with bleeding hearts looking for something to bleed on. Speaking up for those who have no voice... because it's easier to maintain their bright and sunny reality when they don't have to face judgment from those they've "saved."

Like I said, I won't be farming lions for food, but more power to someone who can and in the process also help preserve the species.

(And preservation of species is whole other can of worms: pure species, pure subspecies, hybrids, coloration, etc)

#61535 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 11:48 pm Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1

The thing is that they can not so easily ban a legitimate agricultural product,
and we have to have ways to push back. The ownership movement is plagued with all these hangups so that we have real trouble telling the AR people "no." Too many on the ownership side say don't breed, don't sell, don't eat, don't let the public pet them, don't pet them yourself, don't trust them, and so on. Every way that we might do something that AR doesn't approve of someone on our side insists that we can't do that. How is it that "we" appear to agree that so-called canned hunts must be banned, or horse slaughter? Every "don't you do that" is a chip out of our ownership rights until nothing is left. They even appear to have reasons for all of it.

Putting the lion on the dinner table is only part of the solution. Agriculture,
hunting, and pet ownership have legitimacy greatly in excess of that which the
animal rights people have. We need to exercise it. This subtle and sometimes
less than subtle atmosphere of terrorism contributes greatly to the feeling that
we are overwhelmed by someone's morality campaign, and makes us afraid to speak up and act out in support of our own legitimate interests and moral and ethical endeavors. That atmosphere makes all of us a lot less likely to exercise our rights, and exercising our rights is the only way to win this.


#61525 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:09 am Subject: RE: Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy

In the current situation I would find it hard to disagree with you, in fact I totally agree that what this restaurant did is probably nothing more than a publicity stunt.

However, what if you could tour a facility that farmed lions. What if you could take students through the entire life cycle of the animal (s), or examine the husbandry practices/needs of the species in captivity? Yes, it's definitely possible to do this today...but on a MUCH more limited scale, and usually with a lot of propaganda/mis-information being interjected into the mix. Farfetched you say? Pretty easy to get tours of Dairy/Cattle/Chicken/Fish farms, not too farfetched. Food for thought. (pardon the pun)


#61526 From: Mbrafford@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:21 am
Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? lakelandcelt

If we are going to eat the big cats, we should be eating the little cats too.
That would freak out alot of people.

#61527 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:56 am Subject: RE: Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy

In some parts of the world this already happens. And if you believe rumors, some ethnic restaurants in our country occasionally dabble with that also.
Heck...who really knows what exactly goes into products such as S.P.A.M.?

#61528 From: "Lisa McCune" LisaMcCune3@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 11:04 am Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? sorchaslassair

Well, it's one of those "urban truths" (read urban legend, LOL) that in certain neighborhoods in Pittsburgh, PA that have high concentrations of particular ethnicities, there are very few stray dogs or cats... I'm sure other large cities have similar stories. There was also a restaurant near Pittsburgh - one of those "chinese buffets" called Dynasty Buffet, that was temporarily shut down by the County Health Board for having domestic cats in their freezer. They did indicate that 'public consumers' were never served cat, but that it was reserved and prepared only for particular older individuals (immigrants) who specifically requested it. Ironically, several years later, I drove past this restaurant, and a couple of lights had burned out in their sign - so it read "nasty Buffet". But really, I can't say it was nasty - I'd never eaten at that particular chinese buffet, although I love Asian food.

I do feel weird about it, but I guess as long as the cat was humanely kept and killed and prepared in a sanitary way, someone for who that is a part of their culture should be able to eat it. I wouldn't do it, since I have cats as pets. I have snakes, lizards and turtles as pets too. I don't eat turtle soup (although in reality, turtles are farmed just like chickens and cows), I refuse to eat rattlesnake - they are incredibly cruelly treated at rattlesnake roundups, and are not prepared in a sanitary way, and while I was offered alligator once, I refused it, but alligators are incredibly plentiful now, they have a legal hunting season, and are farmed.

I have more problems with ANY food animal being mistreated - I haven't eaten
veal for many years now, the commercial production of foie gras is disturbing, and videos of injured, lame, sick chickens, pigs, and cows cruelly handled before they enter the slaughterhouses anyways(!) is also disturbing. Videos of once loved pet horses, now old, sick, emaciated, being bought by meat buyers at auction is also very sad. I just think that all animals should be treated well, and deserve a clean death/slaughter.

I wish I could say that I always buy free-range, grass fed, non-factory farmed... meat, eggs, etc.. but that can be hard to find (and I currently live in Amish country!) and it's also expensive. But I am aware that meat doesn't come from a cellophane wrapper, and I thank the spirit of the animal for it's sacrifice. It may not be enough, but I am for Animal Welfare, not Animal Rights, and I do think that we will end up moving away from the huge factory farm model and move back towards smaller local farming models.......Just some thoughts....

Lisa

#61532 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:21 pm Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1

I totally agree. The waste of materials and food is disrespectful. At least
recycle them into fish feed or something.

#61531 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:20 pm Subject: RE: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1

Right now the Chinese are farming tigers and letting them die of old age rather
than slaughtering them, with the goal of flooding the market with tiger parts so
that poachers will be out of a job.

Strange, that the activists who complain about farms and slaughtering farm
animals have no qualms at all about killing off people's pets. They actually
declare our pets and livestock to be unworthy of life and reproduction. At the
same time they complain about the killing of them. We are dealing with insanity
and sociopathy and it is a vital mistake to give them an inch on any issue.
They certainly won't give us any.

Farming replaces what we take and saves species and subspecies.

#61533 From: "Rune" lionguy@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 10:37 pm
Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? runeraion

They DO eat them in Asia.

#61536 From: "Rune" lionguy@...Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:26 am
Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? runeraion

The real war against exotics started 15 years ago. I was never able to get
people to see it back then. I was alarmist, negative, etc. when I mentioned the
need to unite to fight.

Then the attitudes started to become more AR-like. Owners started parroting the
AR lines and stances themselves. Trying to make them see how they were cutting themselves down was futile.

Many told me they were established, had their licenses, and would ALWAYS be able to have their animals. Most of them are gone from the field now. Reality caught up with them.

The "commodity" idea was rejected. Exotics for fur, food, entertainment, and
pets was becoming politically incorrect.

Then the attacks began in earnest. WAO, ASA, Shambala, all rose from nowhere and were unopposed at first. They demanded an all-out ban on everything, showing their ultimate goals.

But even that did not unite owners. Some actually joined the ban crowd. One even rewrote the Shambala bill to exempt himself, tied in with a child who had been maimed by a tiger, and took a tiger cub to DC to promote his version. Real helpful.

The rest either sat on their hands or tried futilely to get other owners to band
together to oppose things. Nothing really came of that. A few dedicated people
wrote, called, and fought but the mass stayed away.

Nobody wanted to fight elsewhere either. There was an attempt to make horsemeat acceptable in the 70s but emotion ruled and got it banned most places instead. A brief fad for pony hide and clothing died in the 80s. We all know what happened recently. No more horse slaughter.

In the current climate it is already too late to do much in this country to make
exotics a commodity, with the possible exception of the current calls for kangaroo meat to replace beef.

Don't hold your breath on that either.

The time to act was before the AR ideas took hold and gained momentum. That is years in the past now and lost opportunities do not repeat.

If you can't treat officially-recognized livestock that way what chance is there
of doing it with anything else?

#61537 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:38 am Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1

We need a white knight for sure because someone who is willing to invest a few
million dollars in our side would change everything.

I don't agree that we've lost an opportunity, though. There is a lot of stuff in the undercurrents that runs in our favor. When the AR people did not have momentum no one thought of them as a threat. It's getting once again where everyone knows someone who has been mistreated by AR or animal control, and people are sick of bombings and arsons.

There is a lot that we can still deny them, and there is a lot that we can take
for ourselves. Just tell people what we want and why.

#61538 From: "Rune" lionguy@...Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:56 am
Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? runeraion

We have been looking for a rich or famous savior all these years too. Several
have been approached.

The big problem there is that those people do not feel threatened. They always
get a pass, can form a corporation, buy a zoo, found a sanctuary, sell out, etc.

Seigfried & Roy were too worried about preserving an image as a sanctuary. Ted
Nugent was not into ownership. Ted Turner was a PC leftist. Others never
answered or were unconcerned. etc.

The one millionaire we had on the lists was happy to have his animals but
campaigned to get laws against lesser people having them. It made him less
"special" if the masses could have them.

(As far as I can tell he no longer has any exotics either. The laws snared him
too. You can't deal with the devil without getting damned.)

Decades ago it was fashionable for rich people to have exotics. Stars would
drive around with lions and cheetahs in their convertibles. Private zoos were
rather common.

Then the AWA was passed and government got a say in the matter. With that came the ability for activists to push for government intervention in any of the
regulated activities.

Today it is politically incorrect to have and do those things. Even the majority
here would condemn such things.

Millionaires are very concerned with their images and try to avoid things that
will generate problems. Most live in areas where things are heavily controlled.
Keeps out the riff-raff.

Many are also politically active and have to please others.

So they avoid such behavior as having lions and tigers. When one does violate
that rule, such as a Mike Tyson or Michael Jackson, they become targets. The
others notice that and avoid the same fate.

We have never found any millionaire who owned these animals and was any
different.

Do you know of any?

#61519 From: HyzenthlayForesight Hyzenthlay.Foresight@...Date: Sep 3, 2008 12:14 am Subject: Re: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? hyzenthlayfo...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/153417 7/So-who-are-you-calling-bird-br\ain-Chatter-of-ch ickens-proves-they-are-brighter-than-we-thought.ht ml

Chickens as smart as monkeys!

"Dr Evans said that monkeys and other primates were known to use specific
calls when they discovered food but this was the first such demonstration
for a nonprimate species."

"The hens even have nuances for a given call, producing them at a higher
rate if the food is highly preferred. "For example corn evokes calls that
are clearly distinct from those given to their regular ration," Dr Evans
said." and as social as lions?

"The cleverness of chickens goes further than the 20 or more calls they can
make, however. For instance they live in stable social groups and can
recognise each other by their facial features."

Chickens smarter than your kids, lol

"Studies by other researchers have shown that the birds have the ability to
understand that an object, when taken away and hidden, nevertheless
continues to exist, a feat beyond the capacity of small children. They are
also good at solving problems."

I had a pet chicken as a kid. She folowed me everywhere and I taught her to
sit on comand so I could pick her up easy.

Mary - who still eats chicken and has a pet bunny but enjoys rabbit on occasion.