From: exoticanimals2@...
Date: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:46 pm
Subject: Re: Bay News 9 exoticanimals3

I found the earlier post that someone had taken off of Bay News 9 and I am wondering why that specific post was copied and pasted with out posting all of them. In case anyone would like to see the other posts I have copied and pasted them.
Jude

From: " Deb" < chimps@...
Date: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:06 pm
Subject: BCR news clip now available to view luvgr8apes

The news story can now be viewed at the following site:

http://www.phoenixexotics.org

Permission to cross post most definitely granted

From: " Deb" < chimps@...
Date: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:01 pm
Subject: BCR & FCF connection is fact luvgr8apes

Straight from BCR site.. When did Carolyne join FCF, 2000? Sounds like Carole
Baskin doesn't allow or approve of volunteers who do not agree with her ideas.
But it's ok for CC to remain... how convenient.

3/16/06 Chris Hawes interviewed former volunteers who had left our mission prior
to the year 2000 due to their failure to evolve with our understanding thatexotic cats should not be bred, sold, traded or used for personal gain.

Message: 16
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:23:37 -0000
From: " slowswimmer1 " thomaskirby169@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: MN: Wow! We got noticed! Details

It's just crazy. A lot of this stuff seems so very staged that I get suspicious. I made this speech about how it wasn't necessary for there to be a conspiracy and they were just taking advantage of natural occurences but there are features of both the Hilderbrand
incident and the Gamble incident that are very suspicious, stinking of setups. Maybe all it was was that they were so mentally ready for it. But the Gamble incident came shortly after Meme's death and a lot of Quist's bashing of other tiger owners including Gamble. Sometimes things happen at far too opportune a time. Even without being guilty of arranging incidents, some of these people are obvious ghouls.

Sometimes they deliberately employ the most indecent tactics that they can excuse, like attacking someone right after a family member has died and driving them to have to move their animals when they are disabled by grief. When they are that indecent, arranging incidents doesn't seem like such a stretch anymore. I don't really think that
this kind of vulture has the patience to wait until something dies of natural causes.

A long time ago a writer by the name of Vance Packard talked about a "screwing by expertism." Experts on a given subject would lie to support a given agenda, like we are seeing. The "truth" became what the hired experts said. Real people have big trouble understanding what happened because they have trouble believing that such lies
carried such weight, especially when they know that a lot of people don't believe those lies or the experts.

But the PETA types have really played both ends against the middle and screwed us around. People really do expect PETA types to push for laws allowing people to keep big cats and oppose those laws on those grounds even through PETA has very vocally opposed private ownership. How do people get so confused? It's because PETA deliberately confuses people. Local authorities often deliberately confuse people too. Why does one sanctuary get a pass and another doesn't? To further the confusion, to make people think that the animals are being rescued, and because they know which sanctuary owners are willing to conspire to destroy the others. Someone like Quist gains an unlimited supply of animals that she doesn't have to pay the owners for. She
gets the donations for "rescuing" the animals. A lot of them no one is going to know if they were euthanized to make space and made into fur coats the way Baskins does. They even confuse people about why the "rescues" were necessary, when it's often due to the ban laws.

I am having real trouble living with all of this.

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:17:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: BOB PITT <azooforu@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Re: drawing attention to zoo incidents

YOU ARE NOT A ZOO !!! You may be licensed like a zoo, you may be inspected like a zoo, but I PROMISE you that you will NOT be considered a ZOO to the general
public or to a politician. You are a "private collector, a road side attraction." You are no
different then any other USDA licensed facility that does NOT have an AZA stamp by their name.

Read the first post I wrote. I said we need to show the experts are wrong and are not deserving their EXPERT status.

We are NOT showing that ownership is this or ownership is that. We are showing AZA is nothing more then a club. they have the same incidents as everyone else. We are showing that PETA is a scam, as well as HSUS. We are showing the BCR is a lying, thieving witch. We are showing that WAO is a lying, thieving witch that needs to go back to her own country and deal with their animal problems. We are showing that TAOS and ASA are both nothing more then CLUBS, that have NO more experience, or better care then any private keeper.

We need to show how these groups with their experts cause the deaths of 100's to thousands of animals every year. PETA claims 90% of ALL MACAQUE monkeys
have Siamian B. If this were true many people would be dead every year, when in fact the last death due to S. B. was to a research tech. working with a known Siamian B monkey, NOT A PRIVATE KEEPER !! These "EXPERTS" have casued many monkeys to be killed because they are "BELIEVED" to have a diesease.. This is what we MUST SHOW !!!

We must stop hiding in the shadows, we must stop thinking we are exempt, we must stop saying cat people are worse then monkey people. Stand TOGETHER and call our enemies BLUFFS. They can NOT show proof of ANY of their claims. Likewise , most if NOT all of our major enemies have such a SHADY BACKGROUND, that if we go on the attack and ask questions into their groups we can and will win victories every step of the way.

Their comes a time in every fight to drop the gloves. NOW is the time to hit right in the nose. This will snap the @#@#$#@%@$'s back into th real world. It is time to STOP turning the other cheek, stop letting it go in one ear and out the other. It is time to PUNCH them right in the nose and give them a REALITY BREAK.

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 15:19:55 -0400
From: "Ray" < rrooney@ucwphilly.rr.com
Subject: Re: drawing attention to zoo incidents

People are listening to zoos damn EVERY other form of owner and exhibitor. Zoos have credibility. Everybody assumes they know everything.

Yes, zoos are working with AR groups. This is largely because they feel superior to everyone and think they don't make mistakes. They feel invulnerable to criticism. They have defused most of the classic "ethical" questions regarding captivity to the public's mind. They feel safe.

If we place THEM in perspective maybe they will see the same arguments can be used against them. Keepers and public get hurt in every segment, not just "pet" ownership, which is low by comparison.

The sanctuary groups also feel secure since they are directly in bed with the AR groups. Airing their dirty laundry would make them less willing to criticize others. They get a COMPLETE pass as things stand now. They are the number ONE thrust behind ban pushes and ALWAYS get themselves exempted.

If they thought THEY risked facing the same consequences of a ban they'd be a LOT less willing to demand them, maybe even shut up or change sides.

How long would Carole Baskin campaign for changes to Florida's laws if she knew they would shut her down too?

The public is not getting the whole picture on this anymore than they get it on 95% of any other stories. The media takes a side, doesn't question info supplied by those it agrees with, and acts as a tool, knowingly or unwittingly, to push the agenda.

Most of the time they never hear the true details. If they did they would hesitate to lie by omission lest it come back to bite them. No reporter likes to be embarrassed.

We have to provide perspective. Nobody else will. A few seeds of doubt here and there could kill some stories and campaigns and change directions of others.

Staying silent is accepting the current situation, even endorsing it.

Ray

Point out shady pasts

Message: 22
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 08:45:47 -0000
From: " Marsha " <marshaha@pressenter.com
Subject: Re: MN: Wow! We got noticed! Details

--- In Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com, Tim Stoffel <tim@... wrote:
Any theories what happened here?

Not enough info on this specific case, and it looks like no witnesses. Past history of the tiger and the autopsy may be the only clues. If you like conspiracy theories...I have to wonder if someone has come up with something to agitate big cats into being more likely
to attack (unbeknownst to the handler, who would otherwise take sensible precautions) A device that plays an annoying sound the human can't hear, a scent, etc. Who has a vested interest in seeing more attacks happen, so they can pontificate on how the incident proves
that private ownership should be banned? Perhaps the best Anti ammo of all is when the person that is injured or killed is someone with years of experience, who truly love their animals, who are assumed to be able to "read" their animals. You'd think that every owner would be taking extra precautions these days with so much publicity about each incident. So why are these incidents happening? Complacency on the part of handlers, perhaps a defensive desire to prove large carnivores aren't the killing machines the media portrays? Inbreeding? Environmental factors? Or a deliberate act?

Marsha

Message: 23
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 08:48:31 -0000
From: " Marsha " <marshaha@pressenter.com
Subject: Re: MN: Wow! We got noticed! Details

--- In Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com, Tim Stoffel <tim@... wrote:
tell you how many times (the tiger) kept running at the fences and just making that screeching roar. It's something I'll probably never, ever forget. I don't know how these people get used to it and work with those animals."

It's not the spine-tingling "screeching roar" that steals human hearts, it's those chuffs of greeting and purrs of contentment.

Marsha

Message: 24
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 05:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: BOB PITT <azooforu@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Re: MN: Wow! We got noticed! Details

The zoo director who states he is against private ownership, what can we find on him. At least a dozen accidents have occured in the USA at ACCREDITED ZOO's. The time has come to show the faults of all of our enemies. AZA, TAOS, ASA, BCR, ACE. Everyting from questionable financial records, to lacking health papers, to violations of the AWA. This needs to be complete and detailed, then we can present it to a national paper and show facts, NOT opinons.. WOULD ANYONE like to lend a hand on getting this together, proofing and set-up and final print. This has to be done to combat comments like the Sen.made in the paper about banning them all. It has to be done in a detailed, and undeniable fashion. This is what is on our side. Figures are real for us, and
INFLATED against us.. This is what we MUST show.

Message 12
From: " lndmonk@aol.com " lndmonk@aol.com
Date: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:21pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Getting paranoid now

In a message dated 4/13/06 12:19:19 AM Central Daylight Time,
aklizard@ptialaska.net writes:

well if we license all breeding it should weed out, or breed out irresponsible people too, then only responsible ones could reproduce, why limit it to dogs?and accidental breedings would be banned too, by making a law that all must be neutered but the approved , surely that is more dire with all the billions I believe API, BCR,WAO and many many other licensed facilities are proof irresponsible, lying, cheating, and corrupt people are not weeded out by simply licensing ....Again who will be the judge of who is responsible and allowed to breed and who is not?? TAOS? PETA? HSUS? USDA? AZA? Linda

_Simply Simian_ (http://www.simply-simian.com/)

Re: Zoning Report

Message 18
From: " exoticanimals2@comcast.net " exoticanimals2@comcast.net
Date: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:17am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Big Cat Rescue approved for rezoning

Watch for their upcoming news on Washington's Channel News 5. Will be airing
next week. I also, will be a part of that news.
Jude

From: Bigcats10@aol.com
County officials give Big Cat Refuge the right to rezone 3 acres for housing
and other amenities.

By JACKIE RIPLEY, Times Staff Writer
Published April 14, 2006

...and who was watching the tigers?

Posted on Fri, Apr. 14, 2006

Details emerging from the tragic Pine County tiger attack that took the life of trainer Cynthia Gamble last week paint a more gruesome picture than previously imagined. The tiger, now euthanized, was examined and found to have had parts of the woman's body in its stomach. The cat was at least 150 pounds underweight, no doubt a major factor in the killing.

Gamble, who held a USDA license for her bankrupt Center for Endangered Cats, was described by friends as an expert handler who "loved" her feline charges. That would have been tough love at best. No reasonable parent would starve a child out of love, and Gamble's terrible fate offers the most compelling case yet against private ownership of big cats.

Not helping is the confusion of who's really acting in the interest of the animals. Carole Baskin of Big Cat Rescue in Tampa, Fla., denounces private ownership of menageries such as Gamble's. Las Vegas tiger trainer Zuzana Kukol expressed support of Gamble but accuses Baskin of breeding cats rather than rescuing them from abusive owners. Baskin calls that "old news," saying her past actions are what make her so adamant against the practice.

Whatever. The whole scat fight is reason, as expressed in a letter on this page, for restricting big cats to their natural habitats or zoos -- and accredited ones at that.

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du luthtribune/news/opinion/14337083.htm

Caro le’s Note: Zuzana Kukol was the VP of Phoenix Exotics and may still be.

From: "Tim Stoffel" < tim@lionlamb.us
To: <Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Phoenix_Exotics] Aslan / Big Cat Rescue

On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 14:58 -0400, Jerry & Linda Gleisser wrote:
Thought you'd find this result I got from googling Narnia artwork
interesting:

Aslan Lion Photo with Cub
Find out what having your picture
with a baby big cat is all about.
www.BigCatRescue.org

It took me a few minutes to find this as a SPONSORED LINK on Google. If you follow the link, it takes you to one of Carole Baskin's anti exhibiting pages, full of misinformation and hate. I wonder if there is a way to petition Google not to accept money for such a misleading link.

Further, to use the good name of ASLAN to promote her twisted agenda is reprehensible. Aslan is such a special name among lions that I would never even use that name myself. In my opinion, using Aslan's name this way is the same as using God's name in vain. All this will do is call a well-deserved curse down on Mrs. Baskin.

For the lions,
Tim Stoffel

Message 17
From: " Prometheus Horse " prometheus_horse@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:13am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Aslan / Big Cat Rescue

Why not squabble about it on the boards related to the movie and get them roaring at BCR about their use of the name . Picketing movie-fanatics isn't good press no matter how you slice it so I'd bet it'd disappear in a hurry.

DTF

Message 18
From: " BOB PITT " azooforu@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:01am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Aslan / Big Cat Rescue

Also, is that more "LOBBYING" on there part. We have a non-profit and I know that you can only use a very small portion of you revenue for this purpose. I'm sure all trips to all the bans they are pushing are on this, as well as the people who write them up, and I
wonder what kind of "GIFTS" the board got to go against everyone else to allow their zoning ?? Do you think they (board) did it for a free years pass .. LOL

Message 22
From: " Ray " rrooney@ucwphilly.rr.com
Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:32am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Aslan / Big Cat Rescue

Send the link to Disney legal and see what they think. They probably have a trademark issue here. This is akin to selling toys with the name on them. Be sure to send a copy of Carole's 20-year plan so they understand she's an enemy of theirs too.

Otherwise there's a risk of them allowing her to do it as a charitable act.

Ray

Message 24
From: " Ray " rrooney@ucwphilly.rr.com
Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:02am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Aslan / Big Cat Rescue

DANGER!

That's the WORST thing we could do. (Been there!)

There's a very REAL danger that they would actually encourage Disney to sanction it as a PR move.

Think about it: Concerned, loving, sanctuary for poor abused pet big cats wants to get support for its oh-so-wonderful work. What a swell opportunity for promotion and positive PR for a big and hated media company!

And it's for the lions, right?

And if Disney doesn't do it they will be attacked as a cold, heartless, corporation by the movie crowd, as is their habit. So, which way will Disney/Walden jump in that situation?

Remember, those people neither know who Baskin is nor the complex exotic animal industry, animal rights/liberation, and political web. Many right here haven't gotten it yet. Many there WILL be AR-leaning to start with.

The result? BCR gets an OK AND a powerful media partner - which owns networks - to promote her agenda.

Can't you just see it? "This week on ABC! At 8:00 it's Carole Baskin's World of Wild Cats!" You thought the crocodile hunter was big? Get a real media outfit behind her and watch the dust. Tippi will be an old forgotten star but Carole will be a current name.

Better write Disney fast, before Carole and her AR friends sell them on it. Mention her back story. Don's murder, etc.

Ray

Message 1
From: " annette.lundberg " annette.lundberg@chello.se
Date: Sun Apr 16, 2006 0:48pm(PDT)
Subject: Carol Baskin and bigcatrescue

Hi,
i am forwarding this from the bobcat-lynx list Its interesting though...

Annette

Vänliga Hälsningar
Annette & Sirpelkvick
From: "Cyndi" <luna6killer@...>
Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:54 pm
Subject: Fw: [hybridcats] IMPORTANT SEND THIS TO EVERY CAT/HYBRID LIST YOUCAN

Hi everyone - this came thru on another list I belong to - please check it out and then see if you can help. This site has the most damaging slide show and the page referred to is very anti-exotic or hybrid owner. There is some evidence (I can't verify it yet) that the owner of this website may actually be a less than honest person as it has been stated that most of her exotics were actually her animals and she was breeding them and selling the kits at one point? Anyways, not trying to start any more 'flames' around here but would like to see if we could keep this from happening. Exotic and hybrid owners do not need a bad rep!! Cyndi

From: <mailto: julia2@gate.net > julia2@gate.net
To: <mailto:julia2@gate.net> julia2@gate.net
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 3:06 PM
Subject: [hybridcats] IMPORTANT SEND THIS TO EVERY CAT/HYBRID LIST YOU CAN

HELP COMBAT CAROL BASKIN'S LIES!!!!!

If you google in bengal cats, jungle cat hybrid, chausie, savannah cats, safari cats, or stone cougars (all keywords in the Big Cat Rescue flaming hybrid page, a sponsored link appears on the right hand side of the Google page that reads...


<http://www.google.com/url?sa=l&ai=BspopFJt ARNGaIpHosQGC_YQG8PvGDoykkvYBxL7mtQuQvwUQARgBKAM4A EiTOVCszY7B_f____8BmAHfc6oBBDJOUlPIAQGVAic0LAo& ;num=1&q=http
://www.bigcatrescue.org/hybrids.htm> All Hybrid Exotic Cats
are listed here with photos, facts,
stories, myths & breeder insiders.
www.bigcatrescue.org <http://www.bigcatrescue.org/>

Click on that link and you are directed to the page she has set up maligning hybrid cats, exotics and breeders.

This means that anyone looking on the biggest search engine in the world for a hybrid will promptly see the above sponsored link and fed Carole Baskin's lies . Not only will this impact on adoptions, but it will undermine everything responsible breeders and hybrid owners have worked to accomplish for so many years.

This is a PAY PER CLICK link--anytime anyone clicks on the link, BCR pays.

Go to Google. Type in one of the key words. Click on the sponsored link. When the page appears, hit the "Back" button. Click again. Click as many times as you can in your spare time. If the link does not appear, it means that the daily or monthly budget may have been maxed out. Check back daily and click away.

Message 4
From: " Prometheus Horse " prometheus_horse@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:15pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Carol Baskin and bigcatrescue (IMPORTANT)

*smiles* well, you're sorta half right. Sites log each click by individual IP per day (usually 12m to 11:59p). So if you're on dialup, you can click, log off, sign back on and click again, running their bill up . If you're on DSL you're pretty much stuck to one click a day. But that's a flyby of how IP logging works regarding charge-per-click. Thus, if too many clicks come from an individual IP address they'll void them all, but... the trick is "how many is too many?" Either way... there's the long and the short of it all. DTF

Message 23
From: " Mbrafford@aol.com " Mbrafford@aol.com
Date: Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:25pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: [Phoenix_Exotics] Re: Need a Big Cat Expert to reply

So, does Phoenix launch editorials back at her or is it best to remain silent? I would think silence is our enemy. The Lakeland Area is close to Tampa and Orlando Florida and is the home to a very large SPCA organization. The town also has many of Florida`s politicians living there. I know, I taught their children. The Ledger was chosen for a reason.

Message 1
From: " Ray " rrooney@ucwphilly.rr.com
Date: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:20pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Need a Big Cat Expert to reply

IF the Ledger will publish an opposing view then write them.

The SPCA is already working with Carole through HumaneUSA if I recall correctly.

The pliticians are a toss-up. Some may be open to reason and some may agree philosophically with Carole. Contact all you know about and maybe it will create enough doubt to undermine support for her.

Too many believe what they hear and never question or look into things. The material has to be brought to them and shoved under their noses or they will act on slanted views and lies.

Ray

Message 5
From: " Ray " rrooney@ucwphilly.rr.com
Date: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:08pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Need a Big Cat Expert to reply

They also need to be informed that activists are using their editorial pages to push an agenda without their knowledge. A link to the original source should suffice. Maybe they will also want to know about Carole's past.

There are several good stories here for an enterprising reporter. Maybe even a Pulitzer. Ray

Re: Smuggling exotics across state and federal boundaries in violation of the Lacey Act

myzootoyou@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/animalambasador/ (979) 388-0782 Nathan Wheelock < myzootoyou@yahoo.com > wrote: Well.....we were talking about ferrets. 50,000 ferrets are beleived to be in California. CA has advocotes for legalization, yet gets shot down each year. I, for,one, have no problem with people sneaking in ferrets, or hedgehogs/sugar gliders for that matter.

Message 20 From: "Prometheus Horse" prometheus_horse@yahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:42pm This is primarily directed to Mark Cameron, but just so everyone knows.... I don't promote illegal activities until all legal means are, or have been exhausted. I've done emergency relocations to prevent seizures of animals by the powers that (may times shouldn't) be.... and other similar activities, where the only damage is to the pride of some DA, ACO, or other governmental or quasi-governmental individual. My forte is canines.... which are a bit easier to transport en masse without arousing suspicion, but when it comes to saving an animal's life, you're damn skippy I'd do damn near whatever it takes. And that's something you can take to the bank. And for those that immediately think "AR raids"... no. That's not in me, nor would I ever be that way, but in the hypothetical I wouldn't be averse to aiding in the "disappearance" of an animal accused of something before it can be seized, the midnight-relocation of an accused indivdiual's beloved animals, or even the magical escape of specific animals from the animal version of death row. And yes, I do support the underground exodus of Pit Bulls from the cities of Denver, and would support the same from Aurora if they pass legislation similar to Denver. For any explanation greater than that, you'll have to get to know me personally. DTF

Kathy Gallagher < celticferret@yahoo.com > 614-785-0794 HEART OF OHIO FERRET ASSOC. & RESCUE P.O. Box 15753 Columbus, OH 43215-0753 wrote: Jumping in Without giving you the route there are directions posted on ferret boards for getting into CA without having to go through CA agricultural inspection. There are roads with no inpsection and there are roads where the inspection centers have been closed due to budget cuts. It's all in the knowing and in the time of day. KG