911 Animal Abuse

7 Search Results for "hybrids"

• Liger in Green Cage 1 Liger in Green Cage 1

  • From: 11233455987
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    A real, not photoshopped liger.
  • 7 months ago
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• Chimp apes mum's love for tige Chimp apes mum's love for tiger

  • From: CaroleBaskin
  • Description:

    I was dismayed to see that Bhagavan Antle (who is no Dr., but rather just calls himself Doc Antle) managed to bamboozle your paper into believing he has any real interest in conservation.  That is only the ruse he uses to exploit exotic animals for his own profit.  No real conservationist would breed white tigers.  Had your reporter googled "white tigers" she would know that.  The American Zoological Association and the head of the Tiger Species Survival Plan denounce such practices.  Find out why here:
    
    http://www.bigcatrescue.org/cats/wild/white_tigers.htm
    
    Surely no American paper would print such self serving drivel.  Australia has a couple of bad places who are breeding white tigers and trying to use the same conservation lip service that Antle uses, so it doesn't surprise me much that it isn't well known there just how abusive this is.  On the other hand, Australia has been very progressive in their understanding that importing exotic cat hybrids would be devastating to your environment.  People are catching on and soon it will be common knowledge that anyone who is breeding white tigers, tabby tigers, liger, king Cheetahs and other such anomalies is doing so merely for their own profit and not for that of the species nor the planet.
    
    Chimp apes mum's love for tiger
    
    By Angela Saurine October 13, 2008 12:00am
    
    THEY may not be related by blood but orphaned tiger cub Mitra loves to monkey around with his unlikely surrogate mum.
    
    Mitra and sibling Shiva were separated from their mother during Hurricane Hanna in the US last month.
    
    Now the three-week-old white tiger cubs have found comfort in the arms of caring chimpanzee Anjna.
    
    While they would be unlikely companions out in the wild, in the safety of The Institute of Greatly Endangered and Rare Species in South Carolina they have formed a strong bond.
    
    "She gives them a bottle, lies with them and acts as a surrogate mother," TIGERS founder Dr Bhagavan Antle said. Dr Antle said the sanctuary in which the tiger cubs lived was flooded in the hurricane and they had to be moved into a house.
    
    When their mother became distressed, staff decided to separate them for their own safety.
    
    The cubs were placed in the care of infant animal care giver China York and her chimpanzee companion, Anjna. "Anjna has been with China side by side ever since she was born and has joined her in caring and raising baby animals," Dr Antle said.
    
    "She has just finished raising four lions and they were inseparable. She is a great assistant."
    
    TIGERS is a wildlife organisation dedicated to promoting conservation.
    
    http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24487190-24331,00.html

  • Blog post
  • 2 years ago
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• Meet the real captive-bred whi Meet the real captive-bred white tiger Comments

  • From: TheirVoice
  • Description:
    1. 
       
    2. calsifer , on April 10th, 2007 at 9:33 am Said:

       Caitlin,
       If you read his story, you’ll see that Kenny’s got a great personality. I’ve nothing against Kenny or Willie. But look also at what Kenny has to live with. Can you imagine living your life like that? But then, at least he gets a life of care and love, something that most other Kennys don’t get.

       I’m angry and disgusted at the people who perpetuate the white tiger fraud and cause tigers to be born with defects like Kenny’s, and for using conservation as a cover for their shameless greed and egotism. I’m also disgusted at the general public for being so accepting of these people’s deception and for not thinking about the truth behind the beauty they see.

       Please tell your friends and family about the fraud, but do let them know, it’s not the tigers’ fault at all, they are themselves victims of human greed and exploitation.

    3. Ash.ave , on April 12th, 2007 at 9:49 am Said:

       ….couldnt have put it better myself, Calsifer.

    4. Jackie , on April 14th, 2007 at 12:37 am Said:

       This is not about Siegfried and Roy

       It’s about the hundreds of circuses, zoos, wild pet owners that inbreed these tigers and misuse them.

       I believe that Siegfried and Roy are helping the tigers but I can’t say that they haven’t inbreed their own tigers..I prefer to think not because they are professionals. I do believe that they are doing more good then bad. However because of their popular show other entertainers are practicing their own horrible inbreeding method in attempt to copy the famous show.

       I appreciate this website and it’s creater who is only trying to open our minds and eyes

    5. calsifer , on April 14th, 2007 at 9:25 am Said:

       Jackie,
       You’re right, this isn’t about Siegfried and Roy - they’re not worth the focus. That’s why I did not mention them specifically. However they were brought in and made the centre of the universe by their supporters. The carnival continues as long as people refuse to take off their personal blinkers and LOOK.

       Indeed, “hundreds of circuses, zoos, wild pet owners” inbreed, exploit and abuse white tigers. And other big cats. Even elephants, dolphins, bears… the list is endless.

       Please read again the comments before yours that’s been posted about Siegfried and Roy”so-called” conservation efforts. It is a fact that the Siegfried and Roy website states that they are doing white tiger conservation, to save the endangered WHITE tiger :

       “Siegfried & Roy have created an open-air home for white tigers, enabling the public to share the conservation work of the renowned illusionists in preserving the endangered species .”

       Any genuine help for TIGERS must preclude this obsession with white tigers. and knowing the truth about white tigers in captivity means this is a misleading statement, to put it mildly.

       Using white tigers in their show degrades, misinforms and confuse the issues of TIGER conservation and the White Tiger Fraud.

       Using white tigers and promoting their allure as an “endangered species” sure adds glamour and allure to their show, but Siegfried and Roy are bilking the romanticism of the wild beast on a stage, the myticism of control over wild animals, and the audience’s feel-good factor of seeing a member of an “endangered species” up close and earning his keep.

       The fact that these two claim to be doing onservation of an endangered species just becomes so much bullocks, used to cement the flaky foundation of their justifications for exploiting white tigers and exploiting the public’s naivete. So I cannot agree with your view/belief that they are “helping the tigers” nor that “they are doing more good then bad”. This is especially when as you observe:

       However because of their popular show other entertainers are practicing their own horrible inbreeding method in attempt to copy the famous show.

       Siegfried and Roy are not guiltless in inspiring this phenomenon. In fact, I am disgusted at their roles in it.

       Well, it looks like Siegfried and Roy are getting time on this blog entry again after all.

       But thank you for being civil, polite and applying some thought to your comment, and for being clear that you “can’t say that they haven’t inbreed their own tigers”. Really, unless Siegfried and Roy themselves prove it, which would be a major miracle, any grand statements that captive-bred white tigers have no inbreeding in their lineage can’t hold tiger urine, white or otherwise.

    6. allyssa fegan , on April 19th, 2007 at 8:58 pm Said:

       thank you

    7. dd , on April 24th, 2007 at 10:20 pm Said:

       white tigers are beatiful but they need to be helped

    8. calsifer , on April 25th, 2007 at 8:46 am Said:

       ALL tigers need help, and they need LESS meddling from humans who just want to artifiicially make more white tigers.

    9. Caz , on April 28th, 2007 at 10:11 pm Said:

       All Tigers are gorgeous animals, no matter what ‘genetic faults’ they have!

       Just thought I’d voice this oppinion.

    10. calsifer , on April 30th, 2007 at 4:00 pm Said:

        Caz,
        Right you are. In fact, ALL living things are gorgeous. The really hideous thing is what we humans, Homo Sapiens, do to them for whatever reason or excuse we dream up.

    11. Zann , on May 6th, 2007 at 10:00 pm Said:

        Everyone,

        I have only been able to read about the first 10-15 posts, and I am completely disgusted. You all have intelligent, rational and valid points, but please, children, can’t you all grow up. You have made this about you and your petty squabbles.

        This article comes down to the fact that there are people out there (and I’m not naming any names before you jump to conclusions) that are wilfully and purposefully putting these animals (and probably others) through hell in order to create a nice, public pleasing, exhibit. White tigers are not natural, although they have been born and survived (although arguably barely) in the wild. That is not to say we have the right to purposefully manipulate that fact for our own ends. Inbreeding is WRONG. It causes more problems within a species than is justifiable - just look at the human race. Incest is illegal in god knows how many countries- there is a reason for it. Royal lines have destroyed themselves because they did not vary their gene pool - we are doing the same to the tiger if we continue to allow inbreeding for the sake of colour. By allowing perfectly healthy, orange coloured tigers be ‘done away with’ because of the colour of their fur is just as bad as the centuries of racism we have let fester in our society.

        Yes, white tigers are beautiful, don’t get me wrong, and if there was a safe way to breed them and let the world se their majesty, I would be all for it, not only to save white tigers, but the tiger species as well. Unfortunately, the white tiger does not “need to be helped”. Natural selection should be allowed to take its course, and if that means the recessive gene is ‘fixed’ or made less dangerous to a tigers health then good. But if not, then unfortunately there may not be a place for the white tiger in the HEALTHY future of the species.

        As for Siegfried and Roy… Well I, not any one else who has posted it seems, has enough information to be able to make a fair and just assessment of their situation. I will admit that they do seem to look after their animals - if in an unorthodox way. However, how they breed and what their aims are for the breeding are unknown to us. Therefore, can we stop bashing or idealising them?

        Finally, I think it is an unfortunate fact that, due to the continued hunt for the tiger that their best chance of survival is in the Zoo’s, conservations and private collections - at least for now. What needs to be done is not this pitiful argument, but actual EDUCATION. These organisations need to be made aware of the problems, difficulties and suffering of trying to manipulate breeding in such a way. Once we have educated as many as possible, perhaps then the scientists can come back and address the gene ‘problem’ and see if there is a way to manipulate it, with no detrimental effects.

        Zann

    12. hayley scherette , on May 8th, 2007 at 12:00 am Said:

        I’ve loved Kenny since the first time i saw those big pushed in eyes. He is so cute and it is so cruel that anyone would say something rude about him. Willie’s story is so so sad too. Like how they wouldn’t take him because he has cross eyes and his fur is the wrong color. He is a beautiful tiger and so is Kenny.In my eyes they are the most beautiful tigers in the world, just because they injoy life even with their deformaties(that I don’t think they have it’s just that all others are have them and we can’t see that) and they are good animals. I mean if you went to any other place would the tiger in it go up to you and let you pet it, no it would not. That is why I’m doing my 5th grade Exit project on it.
        From,
        hayley scherette *crying*

    13. calsifer , on May 15th, 2007 at 1:49 pm Said:

        Zann ,
        You seem to have a grip on the picture. But I’m a bit confused. If you’ve read the number of posts/comments you said you did, I don’t see how you’d think that there’s that much of a (hopefully) benign mystery about S & R, and I quote: “As for Siegfried and Roy… Well I , not any one else who has posted it seems, has enough information to be able to make a fair and just assessment of their situation. I will admit that they do seem to look after their animals - if in an unorthodox way. However, how they breed and what their aims are for the breeding are unknown to us. Therefore, can we stop bashing or idealising them?”

        For one, I thought the italicised was supposed to have a “not” in there. For another, I’m disturbed to think that you might just be defending them - which is so sad IF you’ve actually read all that you claim to have read.

        hayley scherette ,
        I believe you’re not getting the picture here. As I’ve said before, all this White Tiger Breeding fraud is the problem and it is NONE OF Kenny’s FAULT. Poor KENNY IS A VICTIM. Look at what Kenny has to live with, all his life. A mouth that can’t close because of his wayward teeth, which also causes him to be forever drooling, and a retarded brain that means he’s slower on the uptake than everyone else. If he had a choice, do you think Kenny would choose to be like this?

        Kenny didn’t make himself into what he is now. It is people, HUMANS like you and me who did. IF what has happened to Kenny is natural, so be it. But the problem is, it is not. And it is happening because of people, HUMANS like you and me. And the sad fact is, after making tigers with problems like Kenny’s, the people who inbreed for white tigers won’t stop there and take responsibility .

        Failed white tigers like Kenny are likely to be abandoned, sold as freakshow displays, to supply tiger meat parts to the Asian markets or otherwise exploited and abused, eg as canned hunting targets!

        Not every failed white tiger is lucky to be saved like Kenny was.

        hayley scherette , rather than cry and do a project on just how lovely Kenny is (which I’ve no doubt he is), why not do a project on what is captive white tiger breeding, and what happens to the other Kennys born because of “captive white tiger breeding” and teach your school mates how and what people, HUMANS like you and me, can do to stop it? That would be more help to Kenny and his fellow victims of “white tiger breeding”.

    14. Laura , on May 16th, 2007 at 11:33 am Said:

        I just wanted to tell you that I support you in trying to bring to light the horrors of inbreeding of tigers to try to “produce” the white tiger. Since white tigers are do NOT naturally occur often, they are inbred in an attempt to “produce” the white tiger to fill the publics appetite for something “different” to look at. I have been to Turpentine Creek many times and have seen Kenny myself many times, along with all the OTHER neglected tigers and lions and other animals who are there. One breeder alone had 47 tigers removed from their facility. Turpentine Creek was able to take some of those unwanted animals in. Turpentine Creek gets calls all the time to take in unwanted BIG CATS. Until the US sets better laws regarding the sale and breeding of exotic animalls there will continue to be a problem with exotics. Turpentine Creek does NOT breed ANY of its animals, they let the animals live out thier lives as peacefully as possible and they recieve excellent care. Right now I have a picture of Numa-Kurlee a lion that lives at Turpentine Creek on my desk and pictures of other cats from there around my office on the walls. Numa-Kurlee was the only one of a litter of 3 cats to survive. There are many cats like him living there and each one has a story. I encourage anyone who thinks that in-breeding of exotics for human entertainment is somehow “saving the species” to look at Turpentine Creeks website and read each story about each animal living there and how they were treated and why they were brought into this world to begin with. White Tigers ARE the result of inbreeding today, there hasn’t been many “natural” births in the world of white tigers and since they are NOT a breed in and of themselves…. SAVING the white tiger makes no sense at all since the white tiger is NOT a breed but a mutation! (granted a pretty mutation, but a mutation non the less!)

        Copied from wikipedia “Stage magicians Siegfried and Roy also own snow white tigers and were the first to attempt to breed selectively for stripelessness.”

        Another site lists: Siegfried and Roy’s breeding program, now operating on three continents, has increased the number of white lions from a mere two to 23, and the number of white tigers from a handful to more than 200.

        Now, however, they are billed as Royal White Tigers or Snow Tigers or other fanciful names. They have been transformed from essentially a freak of nature into an “endangered species.” There are no endangered white tigers in the natural world clinging to a precarious existence. There are plenty in captivity, along with a few white lions, who have always been no more than a novelty or publicity draw for their owners. The white tiger is a chance mutation in the wild and in the US it is a FORCED mutation.

        Oh well running out of things to say, keep up the good work regarding the tragic story about the “white tiger” I wish all of you could actually go see Kenny and others at Turpentine Creek and see how many there are deformed “rejects” of the big cat trade. At least those cats that live there now, can live out the rest of their days in peace and actually put their feet on the grass and have the sun shine on them and have people who LOVE them care for them. Here is a link to read more about the sad story about exotics and those who love them and will care for them even though they have been abused, neglected and uncared for: http://www.turpentinecreek.org/NewSite/

    15. calsifer , on May 16th, 2007 at 5:54 pm Said:

        Laura,
        Thank you very much for:
        - Weighing in with your real-life experiences of meeting with Kenny and his fellow rescue-cats at Turpentine Creek.
        - Your precise understanding of the whole mess called the White Tiger Fraud, and for realising it goes beyond white tigers, that other big cats, both the specifically trait-bred ones, like white lions, to the usual ones
        - Providing more info on the shameful business of captive big-cat breeding

        I hope more people read your comments and really THINK, because as a real-life account, your words are far more impactful than mine could ever be. Thanks for taking the time to pen your thoughts here.

        Thank you, Laura.

    16. IluvKenny , on May 19th, 2007 at 11:19 am Said:

        I, too love Kenny (and his sometimes forgotten yet still amazing brother Willie) and There are for too few places like Turpentine Creek and Big Cat Rescue out there.

        I know it’s dismissive, but I don’t think it hypocritical to have a facility like that even if 20 years ago or whatever, the founders were pet owners. It just means that they wised up. Most religions thrive on converts. Most Christians I know love to hear of someone repenting their ways and being “saved”

        It’s places like this that need our priase now. They’re the ones cleaning up other people’s messes. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere should any SSP animal be bred except in an SSP facility, where bloodlines can be monitored and genetics can be purified. That’s why it’s so frustraing the hear the suits telling the conservationalists to do certain things to raise money.
        I’ve never met a Cat person who advocates freakshows like whites or stripelesses or hybrids like Serval/housecats or Ligers. Places that do this (zoos included) are only after the money aspect of it. But it’s not the “animal people” in these zoos, it’s the beauracrats. Money talks in this country, and the sooner people stop paying money to see these unnatural animals, the real conservation can begin.

    17. Amanda , on May 21st, 2007 at 11:59 am Said:

        hi okay so the 1 in 10,000 white tiger that is born. would that make it a bengal white tiger or a siberian white tiger. i think its a shame that people would breed these animals together. it would seem so much better if we could see the 1 in 10,000 then we could aww over that. white tigers used to be my favorite but now that i have learned about how they are bred and how much goes into it. i dispise the crossbred and inbred white tigers they have made. i only like the 1 in 10,000 they are special. i had to do bengal tigers for a enironmental science project and i feel ashamed for the boy in my class who picked white tiger because its not even a subspecies of tiger. so it cant be endangered. although i never thought it was. its not endangered because it doesnt excist. a white tiger is a mutation of a tiger. you cant cross breed something and make it a new spieces. that would be like sayin we are doing something godly. since when is anyone a god.

    18. ryan , on May 21st, 2007 at 2:28 pm Said:

        amanda, im not a tiger or gene expert but I assume that if a tiger were to be born naturally white and not as a result of inbred mating it could be, a pure white bengal tiger, a pure white siberian tiger or a hybrid white siberian/bengal tiger depending on the speicies of the mother and father.

        For me it it is very disheartening to hear that all of the white tigers I have been fascinated by for all these years are not true white siberian or bengal tigers and equally dissapointing to hear the odds of there being a natural born white tiger considering that there are probably much less than 10,000 wild tigers alive today.

    19. tiger love , on June 15th, 2007 at 8:09 am Said:

        poor kenny and willie my heart is broken and will never be heald im so ashamed and embarresd

    20. peace , on June 17th, 2007 at 2:19 pm Said:

        Stop the fighting … cant we all just hug it out!!!!!!!

    21. menno , on June 30th, 2007 at 9:51 am Said:

        i wanne adopt kenny!!!

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  • 2 years ago
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• Lion on the Menu Comments by P Lion on the Menu Comments by PE

  • From: TheirVoice
  • Description:

    Lions on the menu

    The following is the unedited postings (except for the addition of bolding some of their sentences) of members of the Phoenix Exotics group who are exotic pet owners, dealers and users who are opposed to anything that would take away their "right" to use any animal any way they want. It is interesting to read in their own words that they believe lions should be farmed as food and tigers should be farmed for their parts because that would create markets for the animals' parts that would protect their personal freedom to make pets and photo props out of them. It is also encouraging to see that they know society has come to condemn their lifestyle.
    
    #61510 From: catmanwho@...Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:51 pm Subject: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? catmanwho2000
    
    
    Check this out???? I know it is on BCR's site but scroll down, after clicking on
    the link, a little, and you will see the Lion on the diners outside menu board.
    Catmanwho
    
    
    From: "Jen" turandot478@...To: WildCats_@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:43:52 +0000
    
    Oh no, I had to see this...it is another article about the lion on the menu in Florida. (Scroll down a little to see the story about the lion and others as food.)
    
    http://www.bigcatrescue.org/laws/2008/captivewil danimalrules.htm
    
    Also on that page are contact numbers for Florida government officials to tell them how outraged you are and that there should be laws stopping this mess.
    
    Jen
    
    #61511 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:27 am Subject: RE: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy
    
    Hell...I'd vote for supporting adding them to the menu. Will get more
    people on our side for breeding/keeping them in captivity. So long as they
    are humanely raised, why not?
    
    
    Post message: Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com
    
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Phoenix_Exotics/Ya hoo! Groups Links
    
    
    
    #61513 From: "David Holt" kc0tlv@...Date: Mon Sep 1, 2008 7:55 pm Subject: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? shasaritiger
    
    I'm sure that there are some that would say yes, and others would say "
    Hell No... ".
    
    Well I fall into the latter category. I have my own reasons for
    finding this rather disturbing - you don't have to think like me - but
    damn, no way could I eat part of a member of a cat species I have
    worked around - I find this rather distasteful to say the least ...
    
    Great - let's start seeing all wildlife as food - gee maybe we can push
    some more species toward extinction. I know, you say "raise them for
    food, farm them for food" ... sorry but I take exception to that ...
    and then it just makes the whole species turn into a commodity ...
    
    Anyway, just my .02c - again you don't have to think like me, but I
    could not read something like that without voicing my opinions ...
    
    David
    
    
    #61514 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 1:30 pm Subject: RE: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy
    
    That's the problem with carnivorous eating habits. Something has to die.
    While I wouldn't choose to eat Lion or any other cat species, it does seem a
    little hypocritical to selectively ban/legislate one species while having
    books of 'standards of care' for other species. If the concept of captively
    breeding/raising Lions for food is wrong, why is such a practice acceptable
    for cows? How about chickens? Pigs? Duck? Buffalo? Alligator? Fish?
    
    What is the problem with making the species a commodity? Even if the typical
    outcome is death, or if you prefer a more graphic term, slaughter, the
    majority of the commercial product would be provided from commercial
    enterprises and the surplus of both skins and other parts would put a pretty
    stiff kink in the poaching situation.
    
    Now don't get me wrong, I would prefer to see these animals alive, but more
    and more they are being legislated out of existence. I find it hard not to
    at least consider any reasonable methods to increase the value of
    maintaining a healthy population of these animals. Zoos are not cutting it,
    private efforts are getting legislated out of existence, many of the
    countries these species are native to are struggling to take care of their
    citizens, meaning the natural resources take a very low priority.
    
    Right now you have species that ultimately serve no purpose in a world
    dominated by humans. Heck many species of these animals are seen as a
    nuisance/threat by people living near/around them. "The only good _____ is
    a dead _____" mentality. Buffalo used to be seen that way, until people
    realized that Buffalo were actually a very good source of food. I don't see
    the difference in the concept. I'm also not suggesting that any legislation
    be changed regarding the hunting/harvesting/etc of the wild variant. My
    comments are specifically aimed at a farmed product. An industry with the
    same basic principles as any other animal farming industry. Basic standards
    of care specific to the species, humane treatment both while alive and
    slaughter method.
    
    Not a new concept.
    
    Post message: Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com
    
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Phoenix_Exotics/Ya hoo! Groups Links
    
    
    #61515 From: "David Holt" kc0tlv@...Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 10:11 pm
    Subject: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? shasaritiger
    
    For the most part, I'm vegetarian by conscious choice simply because A: it's healthier and B: because there are some very tasty veggie recipies.
    
    No, no worries, I'm not with PETA - trust me on that - they are a bunch of wackies who would rather see tigers go extinct than preserved in captivity by zoos and knowledgable private owners – kind of twisted view if you ask me ... but enough of that - I'm sure you all know the idiocies of peta types ...
    
    It's just, at least from where I stand, I could not consider an animal with which I have bonded (or with it's species) as a source of food. Not very respectful. I'm sure there are some who considers cows as pets, chickens as pets etc. But, if you ask me, lions are more intelligent than your average chicken - or at least they seem to have greater intelligence - no I've not given a lion an IQ test side by side with a chicken - it just seems that way. Perhaps I'm anthropomorphisizing the cats - but I don't think of them as little 4 footed humans - so I don't think I'm doing that too much anyway.
    
    It's sort of like this for me - I respect the lion as a species. I also very much respect tigers as well - and I shudder to think of either of them as a food item ... I would not eat a restaraunt that served up lion on the menu ... period.
    
    And, let me remind you, I am not trying to convince anyone - this is a forum for sharing ideas and points of view and I'm just noting mine - I'm not forcing you to think like I do - and conversely I
    don't think you are forcing me to think your way - won't happen anyway so might as well save your breath ... :-)
    
    Dave
    
    
    #61523 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:55 am Subject: RE: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy
    
    Never was Dave, just wanted to offer a counterpoint for the sake of discussion, and perhaps attempt to shed a little light on why I said what I did. Understanding doesn't have to mean agreement. I would hope we can find a better solution than having to resort to making them a food commodity.
    
    
    From: hoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Holt
    Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 10:12 PM
    To: Phoenix_Exotics@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [Phoenix_Exotics] Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu?
    
    And, let me remind you, I am not trying to convince anyone - this is a forum for sharing ideas and points of view and I'm just noting mine - I'm not forcing you to think like I do - and conversely I don't think you are forcing me to think your way - won't happen anyway so might as well save your breath ... :-)
    
    Dave
    
    
    #61518 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 10:52 pm Subject: RE: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1
    
    Robert, my idea for a long time has been to make animals useful to humans in
    every possible way. This includes as food, as sources of useful materials, as
    companions, and maybe even as building material. The point of this idea is to
    make it so that humans raise and keep as many of each species as possible. We
    don't have to sit in mud and our own fecal matter, in rags, like a lot of people
    in Asia do. We are actually better off prosperous, as a dependable source of
    food, in an industrial society that actually generates less pollution per person
    than does a pre-industrial society.
    
    
    #61530 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:12 pm Subject: RE: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1
    
    I am going to presume that they are. Americans are very concerned about the
    humane treatment of animals, to a fault. That fault is that we are easily led
    to be angry at certain offenders rather than contribute to better care. This is
    why the activists have the power to take animals away from people who they know are taking good care of them.
    
    
    #61517 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Tue Sep 2, 2008 10:40 pm Subject: Re: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1
    
    And I happen to think that that makes no sense at all.
    
    --- On Mon, 9/1/08, David Holt kc0tlv@... wrote:
    
    #61521 From: lyon@...Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 3:45 pmSubject: Re: Lion on the Menu? nakobi_99
    
    I'm going through our tour speech in my head for our lions, and I'm thinking that after all the talk about how beautiful and majestic the lions are, and even answering some questions about their brutal nature in the wild, I'd never end my talk with "...and if you want to know what they taste like, there's this restaurant..."
    
    I'm trying to foster an educated respect for big cats in people. I can help them understand that a lion is not a grown up tiger, and that tigers are not female lions because they have stripes, and that lionesses are not grown up tigers that have lost their stripes just like cougars lose their spots. I'm not sure how much of this same learning is imparted while eating a lion. I'm also not sure how much respect for the species is instilled via their taste. Maybe they really ARE that tasty, but I'm going to venture a guess that the people coming out of that restaurant are no more informed about big cats in the wild than before they went in. I could be wrong; the restaurant might put out doilies with educational messages on them.
    
    As for farming big cats, the cats would soon be devolved into whatever was necessary to serve the economics of that market. (This is especially true of the pet market, too.) Just the same as we now have farm animals that bear little if any resemblance to a wild counterpart--if one even exists. Fur farming would result in nontraditional coat patterns to serve the ever-changing needs of fashion. In the end, we would end up with an animal that is a hazy simulacrum of its wild cousin. I'm not at all bashing farming industry in any way, I'm just explaining the reality of the market.
    
    Most importantly, this isn't economically feasible, which makes it feel like some sort of gimmick. We had the same thing happen at "Top o' The Cove" restaurant back in the late 90's. It's a great example of a divide and conquer topic much like abortion and free speech are in mainstream politics. Try not to fall into this emotional trap.
    
    Personally, though, I disagree strongly with it, I think i t's a publicity stunt aimed at profiting from the death of a lion, nothing more. Goes against pretty much every reason I started working with big cats.
    
    But should they outlaw it? Nope.
    
    On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 07:40:45PM -0700, Thomas Kirby wrote:
    And I happen to think that that makes no sense at all.
    
    
    Anyway, just my .02c - again you don't have to think like me, but I could not read something like that without voicing my opinions ...
    
    David
    
    
    #61522 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Wed Sep 3, 2008 11:45 pm Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1
    
    Did you notice the part where David Holt implies that the animals are better off
    dead than treated as a commodity? There is little difference between saying
    that about lions and saying that about cattle.
    
    Lions and tigers are already valued commodities. The various ways that they are
    valuable to humans contributed greatly to their survival until the so-called conservationists and so-called animal rights activists started all of this crooked politicking. Now they use every dirty trick that there is to devalue the animals that are in human hands and to reserve possession only for elite organizations and individuals. This reduces the potential population of lions and tigers by thousands of animals. When they are a commodity their population continually increases. Under the control of the animal rights and conservation interests, their population will continually dwindle, and the AR/conservationists will attempt to justify this by using specious arguments like "they're not purebred."
    
    They are already doing the same crap with dogs and horses.
    
    The so-called humane societies, animal rights groups, and conservationists have
    no qualms at all about profiting from the deaths of animals. The anti-ownership
    movement does little but profit from the deaths of animals.
    
    I am trying to get some people who can understand this to take in the idea of
    making commodities of the animals. When the animals proliferate through human-controlled spaces their futures are much more secure. Leave them out in
    the "wild" as nuisance animals that attack villages and villagers all over the globe and eventually the villagers will get sick of it and kill as many of them as they can just to stop getting killed. Pets are a lot safer to have around.
    
    
    #61534 From: lyon@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 3:49 pm Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? nakobi_99
    
    I agree that things are bad for private ownership. And back to the main point: I don't believe that putting a lion on the dinner table will solve this problem.
    
    And the AR has sung that same tune for years now: death is better than slavery. It's nothing new. People with bleeding hearts looking for something to bleed on. Speaking up for those who have no voice... because it's easier to maintain their bright and sunny reality when they don't have to face judgment from those they've "saved."
    
    Like I said, I won't be farming lions for food, but more power to someone who can and in the process also help preserve the species.
    
    (And preservation of species is whole other can of worms: pure species, pure subspecies, hybrids, coloration, etc)
    
    #61535 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 11:48 pm Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1
    
    The thing is that they can not so easily ban a legitimate agricultural product,
    and we have to have ways to push back. The ownership movement is plagued with all these hangups so that we have real trouble telling the AR people "no." Too many on the ownership side say don't breed, don't sell, don't eat, don't let the public pet them, don't pet them yourself, don't trust them, and so on. Every way that we might do something that AR doesn't approve of someone on our side insists that we can't do that. How is it that "we" appear to agree that so-called canned hunts must be banned, or horse slaughter? Every "don't you do that" is a chip out of our ownership rights until nothing is left. They even appear to have reasons for all of it.
    
    Putting the lion on the dinner table is only part of the solution. Agriculture,
    hunting, and pet ownership have legitimacy greatly in excess of that which the
    animal rights people have. We need to exercise it. This subtle and sometimes
    less than subtle atmosphere of terrorism contributes greatly to the feeling that
    we are overwhelmed by someone's morality campaign, and makes us afraid to speak up and act out in support of our own legitimate interests and moral and ethical endeavors. That atmosphere makes all of us a lot less likely to exercise our rights, and exercising our rights is the only way to win this.
    
    
    #61525 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:09 am Subject: RE: Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy
    
    In the current situation I would find it hard to disagree with you, in fact I totally agree that what this restaurant did is probably nothing more than a publicity stunt.
    
    However, what if you could tour a facility that farmed lions. What if you could take students through the entire life cycle of the animal (s), or examine the husbandry practices/needs of the species in captivity? Yes, it's definitely possible to do this today...but on a MUCH more limited scale, and usually with a lot of propaganda/mis-information being interjected into the mix. Farfetched you say? Pretty easy to get tours of Dairy/Cattle/Chicken/Fish farms, not too farfetched. Food for thought. (pardon the pun)
    
    
    #61526 From: Mbrafford@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:21 am
    Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? lakelandcelt
    
    If we are going to eat the big cats, we should be eating the little cats too.
    That would freak out alot of people.
    
    #61527 From: "Robert" RS_PhoenixExotics@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:56 am Subject: RE: Lion on the Menu? rjs_boy
    
    In some parts of the world this already happens. And if you believe rumors, some ethnic restaurants in our country occasionally dabble with that also.
    Heck...who really knows what exactly goes into products such as S.P.A.M.?
    
    #61528 From: "Lisa McCune" LisaMcCune3@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 11:04 am Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? sorchaslassair
    
    Well, it's one of those "urban truths" (read urban legend, LOL) that in certain neighborhoods in Pittsburgh, PA that have high concentrations of particular ethnicities, there are very few stray dogs or cats... I'm sure other large cities have similar stories. There was also a restaurant near Pittsburgh - one of those "chinese buffets" called Dynasty Buffet, that was temporarily shut down by the County Health Board for having domestic cats in their freezer. They did indicate that 'public consumers' were never served cat, but that it was reserved and prepared only for particular older individuals (immigrants) who specifically requested it. Ironically, several years later, I drove past this restaurant, and a couple of lights had burned out in their sign - so it read "nasty Buffet". But really, I can't say it was nasty - I'd never eaten at that particular chinese buffet, although I love Asian food.
    
    I do feel weird about it, but I guess as long as the cat was humanely kept and killed and prepared in a sanitary way, someone for who that is a part of their culture should be able to eat it. I wouldn't do it, since I have cats as pets. I have snakes, lizards and turtles as pets too. I don't eat turtle soup (although in reality, turtles are farmed just like chickens and cows), I refuse to eat rattlesnake - they are incredibly cruelly treated at rattlesnake roundups, and are not prepared in a sanitary way, and while I was offered alligator once, I refused it, but alligators are incredibly plentiful now, they have a legal hunting season, and are farmed.
    
    I have more problems with ANY food animal being mistreated - I haven't eaten
    veal for many years now, the commercial production of foie gras is disturbing, and videos of injured, lame, sick chickens, pigs, and cows cruelly handled before they enter the slaughterhouses anyways(!) is also disturbing. Videos of once loved pet horses, now old, sick, emaciated, being bought by meat buyers at auction is also very sad. I just think that all animals should be treated well, and deserve a clean death/slaughter.
    
    I wish I could say that I always buy free-range, grass fed, non-factory farmed... meat, eggs, etc.. but that can be hard to find (and I currently live in Amish country!) and it's also expensive. But I am aware that meat doesn't come from a cellophane wrapper, and I thank the spirit of the animal for it's sacrifice. It may not be enough, but I am for Animal Welfare, not Animal Rights, and I do think that we will end up moving away from the huge factory farm model and move back towards smaller local farming models.......Just some thoughts....
    
    Lisa
    
    #61532 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:21 pm Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1
    
    I totally agree. The waste of materials and food is disrespectful. At least
    recycle them into fish feed or something.
    
    #61531 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:20 pm Subject: RE: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1
    
    Right now the Chinese are farming tigers and letting them die of old age rather
    than slaughtering them, with the goal of flooding the market with tiger parts so
    that poachers will be out of a job.
    
    Strange, that the activists who complain about farms and slaughtering farm
    animals have no qualms at all about killing off people's pets. They actually
    declare our pets and livestock to be unworthy of life and reproduction. At the
    same time they complain about the killing of them. We are dealing with insanity
    and sociopathy and it is a vital mistake to give them an inch on any issue.
    They certainly won't give us any.
    
    Farming replaces what we take and saves species and subspecies.
    
    #61533 From: "Rune" lionguy@...Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 10:37 pm
    Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? runeraion
    
    They DO eat them in Asia.
    
    #61536 From: "Rune" lionguy@...Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:26 am
    Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? runeraion
    
    The real war against exotics started 15 years ago. I was never able to get
    people to see it back then. I was alarmist, negative, etc. when I mentioned the
    need to unite to fight.
    
    Then the attitudes started to become more AR-like. Owners started parroting the
    AR lines and stances themselves. Trying to make them see how they were cutting themselves down was futile.
    
    Many told me they were established, had their licenses, and would ALWAYS be able to have their animals. Most of them are gone from the field now. Reality caught up with them.
    
    The "commodity" idea was rejected. Exotics for fur, food, entertainment, and
    pets was becoming politically incorrect.
    
    Then the attacks began in earnest. WAO, ASA, Shambala, all rose from nowhere and were unopposed at first. They demanded an all-out ban on everything, showing their ultimate goals.
    
    But even that did not unite owners. Some actually joined the ban crowd. One even rewrote the Shambala bill to exempt himself, tied in with a child who had been maimed by a tiger, and took a tiger cub to DC to promote his version. Real helpful.
    
    The rest either sat on their hands or tried futilely to get other owners to band
    together to oppose things. Nothing really came of that. A few dedicated people
    wrote, called, and fought but the mass stayed away.
    
    Nobody wanted to fight elsewhere either. There was an attempt to make horsemeat acceptable in the 70s but emotion ruled and got it banned most places instead. A brief fad for pony hide and clothing died in the 80s. We all know what happened recently. No more horse slaughter.
    
    In the current climate it is already too late to do much in this country to make
    exotics a commodity, with the possible exception of the current calls for kangaroo meat to replace beef.
    
    Don't hold your breath on that either.
    
    The time to act was before the AR ideas took hold and gained momentum. That is years in the past now and lost opportunities do not repeat.
    
    If you can't treat officially-recognized livestock that way what chance is there
    of doing it with anything else?
    
    #61537 From: Thomas Kirby slowswimmer1@...Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:38 am Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? slowswimmer1
    
    We need a white knight for sure because someone who is willing to invest a few
    million dollars in our side would change everything.
    
    I don't agree that we've lost an opportunity, though. There is a lot of stuff in the undercurrents that runs in our favor. When the AR people did not have momentum no one thought of them as a threat. It's getting once again where everyone knows someone who has been mistreated by AR or animal control, and people are sick of bombings and arsons.
    
    There is a lot that we can still deny them, and there is a lot that we can take
    for ourselves. Just tell people what we want and why.
    
    #61538 From: "Rune" lionguy@...Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:56 am
    Subject: Re: Lion on the Menu? runeraion
    
    We have been looking for a rich or famous savior all these years too. Several
    have been approached.
    
    The big problem there is that those people do not feel threatened. They always
    get a pass, can form a corporation, buy a zoo, found a sanctuary, sell out, etc.
    
    Seigfried & Roy were too worried about preserving an image as a sanctuary. Ted
    Nugent was not into ownership. Ted Turner was a PC leftist. Others never
    answered or were unconcerned. etc.
    
    The one millionaire we had on the lists was happy to have his animals but
    campaigned to get laws against lesser people having them. It made him less
    "special" if the masses could have them.
    
    (As far as I can tell he no longer has any exotics either. The laws snared him
    too. You can't deal with the devil without getting damned.)
    
    Decades ago it was fashionable for rich people to have exotics. Stars would
    drive around with lions and cheetahs in their convertibles. Private zoos were
    rather common.
    
    Then the AWA was passed and government got a say in the matter. With that came the ability for activists to push for government intervention in any of the
    regulated activities.
    
    Today it is politically incorrect to have and do those things. Even the majority
    here would condemn such things.
    
    Millionaires are very concerned with their images and try to avoid things that
    will generate problems. Most live in areas where things are heavily controlled.
    Keeps out the riff-raff.
    
    Many are also politically active and have to please others.
    
    So they avoid such behavior as having lions and tigers. When one does violate
    that rule, such as a Mike Tyson or Michael Jackson, they become targets. The
    others notice that and avoid the same fate.
    
    We have never found any millionaire who owned these animals and was any
    different.
    
    Do you know of any?
    
    #61519 From: HyzenthlayForesight Hyzenthlay.Foresight@...Date: Sep 3, 2008 12:14 am Subject: Re: Re: FW: [WildCats_] Lion on the Menu? hyzenthlayfo...
    
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/153417 7/So-who-are-you-calling-bird-br\ain-Chatter-of-ch ickens-proves-they-are-brighter-than-we-thought.ht ml
    
    Chickens as smart as monkeys!
    
    "Dr Evans said that monkeys and other primates were known to use specific
    calls when they discovered food but this was the first such demonstration
    for a nonprimate species."
    
    "The hens even have nuances for a given call, producing them at a higher
    rate if the food is highly preferred. "For example corn evokes calls that
    are clearly distinct from those given to their regular ration," Dr Evans
    said." and as social as lions?
    
    "The cleverness of chickens goes further than the 20 or more calls they can
    make, however. For instance they live in stable social groups and can
    recognise each other by their facial features."
    
    Chickens smarter than your kids, lol
    
    "Studies by other researchers have shown that the birds have the ability to
    understand that an object, when taken away and hidden, nevertheless
    continues to exist, a feat beyond the capacity of small children. They are
    also good at solving problems."
    
    I had a pet chicken as a kid. She folowed me everywhere and I taught her to
    sit on comand so I could pick her up easy.
    
    Mary - who still eats chicken and has a pet bunny but enjoys rabbit on occasion.

  • Blog post
  • 2 years ago
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• Lions Served Up in FL Restaura Lions Served Up in FL Restaurants

  • From: CaroleBaskin
  • Description:

    Big Cat Rules

    This page is devoted primarily to pending changes in Florida's captive wild animal rules, but even if you are not from Florida, this could make a big difference where you live because Florida currently produces more big cats than any other state. These cats are hauled all over the country, and sometimes even to foreign countries where people are not as concerned with protecting animals. When the cats cats can no longer be used to support their owners they are often dumped along the way; sometimes into the hands of unwitting exotic pet owners, sometimes they are served up in restaurants and sometimes they are dumped into the wild with no survival skills. Ending the trafficking of exotic cats in Florida will greatly reduce the number of these cats who end up suffering in all parts of the world.

    The comment period on these proposed rules closes 5PM on July 4, 2008 , so be sure to mail or email your comments before then if you want to be a part of the cure. Send them to RuleChanges@MyFWC.com and put "Captive Wildlife" in the subject line or mail them to Florida Wildlife Conservation Commission c/o Captain Linda Harrison at 620 S. Meridian treet Tallahassee, FL 32399-1600.

    Below is the summary of the rules proposed by the FWC and Big Cat Rescue's comments are in bold .

    Summary of Proposed Rule Changes - 2008
    Chapter 68A-6, Florida Administrative Code (F.A.C.)

    68A-6.002 Categories of Captive Wildlife

    * Clarify that categories of wildlife includes taxonomic successors and subspecies thereof.
    * Classification changes:

    * Class I:
    o Gaur (family Bovidae)
    o Hyena and Aardwolf (family Hyaenidae)
    o Cougars, panthers (Puma concolor)
    o Cheetahs (Acinonyx jabatus) typo: jubatus
    * Class II:
    o Patas monkeys (genus Erythrocebus)
    o Vervet, Grivet or Green monkeys (genus Chlorocebus)
    o Change Bearded sakis to include all sakis (genus Chiropotes and Pithecea)
    o Change reference of specific jackal species to all jackal species (family Canidae).
    o Change reference of Gray wolves and Red wolves to all wolves (family Canidae); and delete reference to wolf x domestic hybrid percentage.
    o Include American alligator (family Alligatoridae)
    o Giraffe and Okapi (family Giraffidae)
    o Tapirs (family Tapiridae)
    o Wild cattle, forest, woodland, and arid land antelope and similar species of nonnative hoof stock of the family Bovidae.
    
    Examples include: Forest buffalo, Banteng, Anoa, Waterbuck, Wildebeest, Hartebeest, Eland, Kudu, Nilgai, Bongo, lechwe, Roan and Sable antelope, Sitatunga, Bontebok, Blesbok, Topi, Kob, Addax, Oryx, Gemsbok, and other species of the family Bovidae which are of similar size, habits and nature.

    * Delete percentage language associated with wolf x domestic hybrids.
    o Include language to address the regulation of hybrids resulting from wild x domestic animal crosses which are substantially similar in size, characteristics, and behavior so as to be essentially indistinguishable from wild animals. This should apply to hybrid cats as well as they are being released into the wild and creating a Super Feral.
    o Such hybrids to be regulated as wildlife at the highest Class if the wild parentage. as the wild parentage
    * Provide that fox, skunks, bats, raccoons or white tail deer taken from the wild may not be possessed as personal use wildlife. add bobcats and cougars because of the rabies issue and the inability to distinguish between a native bobcat or cougar and a non native bobcat or cougar. Most other states already protect their native wildlife this way and with the FL Panther in such peril, it only makes sense.

    68A-6.004 Standard Caging Requirements for Captive Wildlife

    * Include proposals to use open air habitats, except as provided, must be approved in writing by the Commission prior to use before housing wildlife.
    * Add the requirement for providing devices that allow for temperature regulation in Red Panda enclosures, as is necessary to ensure the well being of this species. Add: snow leopards, Amur tigers & Amur leopards.

    68A-6.0011 Possession of Wildlife in Captivity; Permit Requirements

    * Require USDA registered research facilities currently exempt from meeting the requirements of 68A-6, F.A.C., to maintain a detailed research proposal, annual record of progress toward research objectives and to meet cage strength requirements in 68A-6.003, F.A.C.
    * Provide that the provisions of 68A-6, F.A.C., do not apply to Bison possessed exclusively for the purpose of production of meat, skins or hides, or progeny thereof.

    68A-6.0022 Possession of Class I, II, or III Wildlife in Captivity: Permit Requirements

    * Remove brushtailed possums from the list of wildlife that may be possessed for personal use without a permit. (Currently listed federally as an injurious species).
    * Require experience for Class I and Class II to be with the species or other species in the same genus that are substantially similar in size, characteristics, care and nutritional requirements to the species for which the permit is sought . typo of a space before the period
    * Require applicants for Class I and II to provide times experience was obtained. should include times, places and activities performed
    * Increase the hours of experience requirement with test option, as provided for Class II applicants to 500 hours. (Same as VR)
    * Modify reference requirements to allow for one of the references to be provided from a representative of a professional or governmental institution such as a University, Public Service agency, Zoological association or herpetological society. Associations and Societies should be defined as accredited or nationally recognized and not just a little band of exotic pet owners calling themselves an association or society.
    * Provide that the experience requirements do not apply for alligators when possessed in accordance with 372.6673, F.S.
    * Provide that the experience requirements do not apply to Bovidae when possessed in accordance with 372.16 or 372.661, F.S.
    * Require corporations to have qualified personnel responsible for the care of Class I or II wildlife.
    o Personnel must meet the experience requirements provided for Class I or II wildlife.
    o Documentation of experience for such personnel must be submitted upon initial application and any change in personnel.
    * Require a USDA license to be obtained within 180 days after initial application and maintained when Class I wildlife is possessed for exhibition or sale.
    * Clarify language for Critical Incident/Disaster Plan requirement (372.921, 372.922, and 68A-6), modify form and form date.

    68A-6.005 Transportation Requirements for Wildlife; Caging Requirements for Performing and Non-Performing Animals

    * Include language in (1) (g) that all wildlife shall be transported in a cage or enclosure appropriate for the species. This really needs to be stated in concrete terms when transporting exotic cats. A circus wagon may contain a tiger, but in the back of a pick up truck there is no barricade to prevent public contact. You can eliminate some of the most abusive practices by restricting the transportation of big cats, except to and from the vet, to and from their final destination, such as in a transfer of ownership or under a previously filed circus itinerary which is open to public scrutiny in considerable advance of the event.
    * Include language that all transport cages which contain wildlife shall be labeled "Caution or Danger – Wild Animal"

    68A-6.007 Possession, Transportation, Exhibition and Caging Venomous Reptiles and Reptiles of Concern

    * Clean up language for reptiles of concern to include their "taxonomic successors."
    * Address taxonomic split of the amthistina complex in the genus Morelia to better reflect the intent of the listing of Amethystine or scrub pythons as reptiles of concern.
    o Includes all subspecies of the genus Morelia that exceed 12' in length upon maturity.
    * Modify reference requirements to allow for one of the references to be provided from a representative of a professional or governmental institution such as a University, Public Service agency, Zoological association or herpetological society.
    * Require corporations to have qualified personnel responsible for the care of venomous reptiles.
    o Personnel must meet the experience requirements provided for venomous reptiles.
    o Documentation of experience for such personnel must be submitted upon initial application and any change in personnel.
    o Consistent with requirements for Class I and II wildlife.
    * Insert new form date for the Critical Incident/Disaster Plan form due to form modifications.

    68A-6.0041 Exceptions to Standard Caging Requirements for Captive Wildlife

    * Include Bison (when possessed for propagation purposes only) as exempt from standard caging requirements, except fencing requirements, of 68A-6.004.
    * Corrected rule reference in paragraph (4), as necessary due to previous rule changes.

    68A-6.003 Facility and Structural Caging Requirement for Class I, II and III Wildlife

    * Require cages or enclosures that use the ground as flooring to have buried concrete footers or bottom apron to further prevent escape from digging or erosion. In 15 years we have never had a cat dig out because it just isn’t their nature. In the 700+ dangerous incidents involving exotic cats since 1990 not one of the 150+ escapes was attributed to a cat digging out. Records from 1919 to 1989 are not as plentiful, but none of them ever mentioned a cat escaping by digging out either. Escapes are almost always due to humans acting negligently and occasionally a big cat goes over the top or through a wall, but not underneath. This would be a punitive measure to require concrete floors, which are broadly known to cause debilitating injury to captive cats, or to require a concrete footer or apron with no benefit occurring for the cat or the public. This may be applicable to bears and wolves, who are known to dig, but should not apply to cages housing exotic cats of any kind. See the list of killings, maulings and escapes here: http://www.bigcatrescue.org/big_ca t_news.htm
    * Insert new form date for the Critical Incident/Disaster Plan form due to form modifications.
    * Make changes to (2)(c)5. as necessary for newly proposed changes to Class I and Class II:
    o The following proposed Class I wildlife may not be possessed on property within an area zoned solely for residential use: I have been in the real estate business for 25+ years and to my knowledge, and that of my colleagues, there is no zoning that is “solely for residential use” so that only plays to the uninformed and doesn’t really restrict anything. The most logical answer to where these animals should be housed, is the simplest: If a Class I animal cannot be kept for personal use and must be a business or sanctuary (a non profit business), then the business or non profit business must be located on land that is either commercially zoned, or a Planned Development specifically created for such a purpose. Grandfathering in existing cats would be acceptable as long as the cats were not replaced.
    + Gaur (family Bovidae)
    + Hyena and Aardwolf (family Hyaenidae)
    + Cougars, panthers (Puma concolor)
    + Cheetahs (Acinonyx jabatus)
    * Make changes to (2)(d) as necessary for newly proposed changes to Class II non-human primates:
    o Include all sakis as exempt from facility requirements as specified in (2)(c)1.-4.
    o Exclude Patas monkeys as exempt facility requirements as specified in (2)(c)1.-4., due to size0 range upon maturity.
    * Clarify in (2)(e) which facility requirements are being referenced when referring to the facility requirements that Class I or II are exempt from meeting.
    

    68A-6.0021 Possession or Transfer of Class I Wildlife as Personal Use Wildlife; Transfer of Wildlife and Record Keeping Requirements

    * Make change to rule title to include "Record Keeping Requirements"
    * Provides a "grandfather" clause for any Class II wildlife possessed for personal use that is up listed to Class I.
    o Any Class II wildlife that is up listed to Class I wildlife upon the effective date of Rule 68A-6.002, F.A.C., is eligible for a permit in accordance with the provisions for Class II wildlife.
    * Provide in paragraph (1) that no other class I wildlife may be "transferred" or kept for personal use. The intent is to prevent continued acquisition of Class I for personal use by grandfathered entities.
    * Require all Class I wildlife possessed for personal use to be permanently identified by means of tattoo, brand, passive integrated transponder (PIT tag), photographic id or other method that identifies the specimen from others of the same species.
    o Specifies requirements in instances where photographic identification is used.
    o Requires owners to maintain records of identification and submit same to FWC.
    o Permanent identification requirements effective July 1, 2009.
    * Change the length of time records of sale/transfer are required to be maintained to 3 years. Add: requirement that these transfers be submitted within 30 days to FWC where they are to be maintained and available to the public. The FWC is never going to have the resources to research these transfers to look for trends and animals who are falling through the cracks. It is only through public access via a transparent system that the abuses will be discovered and rectified.
    * Specify that sale/transfer records are to include: date, quantity and species, name and complete address of recipient; and license identification number where applicable.
    * Provide that record of sale/transfer are not required for that wildlife that may be possessed for personal use without a permit as specified in 68A-6.0022 (2) (a) – (v), except as otherwise required.

    68A-6.0023 General Regulations Governing Possession of Captive Wildlife; Record Keeping Requirements

    * In paragraph (2)(a) include "68A-6.007" as it pertains to requiring wildlife to be maintained in cages or enclosures constructed in compliance with the specified rules.
    * Include language that requires out door enclosures for non-native venomous reptiles or reptiles of concern to be covered as provided in rule 68A-6.007.
    * Require structural safety barriers to be present to prevent public contact with unconfined Class I or II wildlife by the public. These barriers should be constructed of similar construction materials and/or strength as the main enclosure, because a rope is sufficient…until one day it is not.
    * Requires possessors to maintain an accurate record of all changes in inventory to include: births, deaths, acquisition and sales or transfers.
    o Records are to be kept on the licensed premises and open to inspection. Add: requirement that these records be submitted within 30 days to FWC where they are to be maintained and available to the public. The FWC is never going to have the resources to research these transfers to look for trends and animals who are falling through the cracks. It is only through public access via a transparent system that the abuses will be discovered and rectified.

    o Describes the information required for records of birth, death, and acquisition.
    o Requires that records of sale/transfer are to be maintained as provided in 68A-6.0021, F.A.C. Add: requirement that these records be submitted within 30 days to FWC where they are to be maintained and available to the public. The FWC is never going to have the resources to research these transfers to look for trends and animals who are falling through the cracks. It is only through public access via a transparent system that the abuses will be discovered and rectified.

    68A-6.0024 Commercialization of Wildlife; Public Contact; Bonding or Financial Responsibility Guarantee

    * Delete reference to "public contact" in rule title. Language pertaining to public contact will remain in 68A-6.0023.
    * Require persons permitted in accordance with 372.921, F.S., to demonstrate consistent and sustained commercial activity as characterized by:
    o A regular media advertising campaign, or Internet Web site;
    o Signs, billboards or flyers advertising commercial wildlife services or operations;
    Regular "Open for business" hours;
    o Written business is conducted on printed letterhead, indicating the name of the company or business;
    o Documented exhibition of wildlife to the public, with or without a charge, of no less that 12 times per year; typo: than 12 times
    o Sale of wildlife including any lesser acts thereof as defined in Rule 68A-1.004, F.A.C.
    * Paragraph (1) is renumbered as (2); and paragraph (2) is renumbered as (3).

    68A-9.006 Wildlife Rehabilitation ermit

    * Delete reference to "joint" permit and update language to accurately reflect federal permit requirement when rehabilitating migratory birds.
    * Reflect correct application title and delete "incorporated by reference" to allow for standardization of agency permit applications without necessitating a rule change.
    * Update the reference of no rehabilitation permit required for rehabilitation on non-native species, to include Class III, venomous reptiles and reptiles of concern.
    * Provide that exotic or non-native wildlife may not be comingled with native wildlife possessed for rehabilitation purposes.
    * Provide that wildlife may be held no longer than 180 days before it must be released, transferred or euthanized.
    * Allow that the 180-day requirement may be extended in instances where a licensed veterinarian has certified that a longer holding period is necessary in the interest of the health and welfare of the wildlife. In all instances where the text says licensed veterinarian, it should read “a veterinarian licensed in Florida.”
    o Require medical records in these instances to be maintained at the facility and made available for inspection upon request.
    * Require evaluation by an independent rehabilitator or veterinarian before physically impaired wildlife is diagnosed as unreleasable.

    68A-6.0025 Sanctuaries; Retired Performing Wildlife and Identification (New proposed rule) As long as sanctuaries are still required to carry the USDA permit and the $10,000 bond, this would be a nice way for the public to easily discern a true sanctuary from a profit making or self serving entity. The permanent identification*, record keeping and submission of such records should apply to all entities in possession of regulated wildlife. *other than those animals being returned to the wild.

    * Defines captive wildlife sanctuaries as a facility established solely for the purpose of providing lifetime care for unwanted or infirmed wildlife.
    * Requires sanctuaries to be licensed per 372.921 and not for profit corporation status as described in 501 (c) 3 of the Internal Revenue Code.
    * Prohibits acts which perpetuate the commercial trade in captive wildlife including the trade, sale, offering for trade or sale, breeding, or buying of captive wildlife or parts thereof. One way that pseudo sanctuaries perpetuate the commercial trade in captive wildlife is by providing a dumping ground for those who breed, use and discard. In many cases pseudo sanctuaries are opposing regulation that ends the trade in exotic animals because if there were no animals to rescue, there would be no need for them to exist. Legitimate sanctuaries will contract with those disposing of wildlife to have them surrender their licenses and/or agree to stop breeding, selling, buying and trading. Big Cat Rescue’s goal is that one day soon there will no longer be a trade in exotic cats and thus no need of rescue facilities.
    * Prohibits full or incidental contact as defined in Rule 68A-6.0023 (3)(a)2.- 3., F.A.C., between the public and such wildlife.
    * Requires permanent identification, recordkeeping of such identification and submission of such identification records to FWC.
    * Allows persons licensed per 372.921, F.S., to maintain performing wildlife which due to age or physical condition may no longer perform, for the purposes of providing lifetime care.
    o Requires permanent identification, recordkeeping and submission of such records as required for wildlife maintained by a captive wildlife sanctuary.

    68A-6.0071 Record Keeping and Reporting Requirements.

    * The Captive Wildlife Inventory-Reptile form, FWCDLE_620IV-R (12-06), will be reviewed to determine if modifications are necessary. Should modifications be made the date (12-06) will be changed to reflect the modified date.
    * No additional changes are anticipated for this rule.

    See the entire language of the proposed rules here: http://myfwc.com/captive/CaptiveCh anges_08.htm

    The public comment workshops were June 9-13 with only a dozen or so attendees at each meeting.

    These are issues that Big Cat Rescue believes should be included in this rule making period but are not in bold so that it is easier to read online:

    Contact was addressed, but not sufficiently. It goes without saying that the public should not be allowed contact with Class I animals, but allowing contact with Class I cats under 25 pounds just creates a tremendous demand for babies that are being discarded or killed when they exceed the weight limit. There is absolutely no reason to encourage this unconscionable practice and ending it would largely end the trafficking in big cats. A federal bill, Haley’s Act HR 1947 is expected to pass this year that bans public contact with big cats and their babies and Florida shouldn’t be drafting rules that will conflict with federal law. Florida’s Congresswoman, Kathy Castor and Congressman Vern Buchanan are co-sponsors of Haley’s Act and when similar bills have passed in Congress they have been unanimous. This is the most important rule change that the FWC can implement to stop the abuse that is the subject of so many of the complaints by both Floridians and visitors. Find out more about big cats bred in Florida who are used, abused and discarded at Dying To Be Held.

    All exotic cats should be re-classified as Class I due to their ability to inflict severe injury and the potential for environmental damage should they be released into US eco systems, where only bobcats, cougars and the occasional jaguar are known to live.

    Definition of “the public.” Too many places charge a fee for people to be a volunteer for a day so that they can circumvent the prohibitions on coming into close contact with Class I wildlife. The way we deal with that at Big Cat Rescue is to require minimum hours per week, to be logged into a computerized data system. A person has to consistently log 8 hours volunteer time per week and have been a volunteer for 18 months (and a whole lot of classes, training, etc.) before they are allowed to be anywhere near a Class I cat and even then are not allowed any direct contact.

    One of the issues that came out in public workshops on the Sanctuary issue was that it is ridiculous to allow an entity to call themselves both a sanctuary and a breeder/dealer by holding one of each license, regardless of the closeness of proximity between one operation and the other. You are either a sanctuary, which is a place that rescues animals from exploitation or you are exploiting them. It’s that simple. Having the FWC bless an operation with their interpretation of the term “sanctuary” when the underlying entities in charge are, at the same time adding to the problem serves only to help mislead the public. Using the requirements set out at www.SanctuaryStandards.com would truly set sanctuaries apart from zoos, breeders, dealers, circuses and such.

    Last, but again one of the most important rule changes the FWC can make is to allow cities, counties and municipalities to enact their own, MORE RESTRICTIVE measures to protect their citizens and to improve their image in the public eye as being forward thinking when it comes to protecting animals from the abuses associated with breeding and keeping wild animals in cages.

    I applaud the FWC for their efforts and look forward to the successful implementation and enforcement of better rules to protect the animals and the public.

    For the cats,

    Carole Baskin, CEO of Big Cat Rescue

    12802 Easy Street Tampa, FL 33625 813.920.4130 Info@BigCatRescue.org

    ************************************* ************************************************** *****

    Legislation cannot change the heart, but it can restrain the heartless.

    The pages behind the banner below make it easy for you to see what bills are currently being considered at both the Federal and State level. Then, by entering your zip code, the software allows you to easily send an email either to the legislators from your district or to those on the Committee considering the bill.

    

    Take Action

    Please note that when you click the Legislation tab the Federal bills appear. There is a toggle link at the top right that will take you to the State bills.

    The power here is in numbers. By having many people email their legislators we can tremendously improve the chances of legislation coming out of Committee and passing. The site is updated automatically as the status of bills changes, so you can be most effective by checking back from time to time. And most important, please tell others about this easy way to be heard and help pass these bills!

    Visit these pages for more information:

    Animal Welfare Laws

    Support Legislation

    Your state's laws

    Big Cat Bans

    See an interactive online map of exotic cat owners.

    Why we need better laws:

    Animal Abusers

    Abandoned Animals

    Failed big cat facilities

    Maulings, killings and escapes

    Slideshow of what captivity means to the animal

    Inadequate laws

    The American Bar Association has an Animal Law Committee. Visit it HERE.

    If you have any questions about the legislative pages please feel free to email us at MakeADifference@BigCatRescue.org

    If protecting animals through intelligent legislation is important to you then please help us keep this program available through your generous donation:

    Email this 1 MB video to a friend, right click here and "Save Target As" to your hard drive.

  • Blog post
  • 2 years ago
  • Views: 191

• Phoenix Exotics Part 1 Phoenix Exotics Part 1

  • From: TheirVoice
  • Description:

    Phoenix Exotics

    See an interactive online map of exotic cat owners . See people being stupid with big cats, endangering themselves and others HERE . See the awful conditions that many captive cats endure HERE .

    Phoenix Exotics is comprised primarily of a group who believe that they should be allowed to breed, buy, sell and trade exotics of all types. They maintain a chat list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Phoe nix_Exotics/ and anyone can join. Because they spend much of their time trying to discredit Big Cat Rescue, many of their members have made a point to copy me whenever my name or organization is the subject of their bashing and threats. The group has 866 members and it appears that the main purpose of the list is to mount counter attacks to legislation that is being promoted to protect exotic animals from exploitation and abuse.

    The purpose of sharing quotes here from members of Phoenix Exotics is to show that they are actively trying to discredit anyone who would speak out for the animals. They cannot fight the issue of keeping wild animals as pets based on the merits. They seem to believe they can only succeed in "protecting their right to have whatever kind of animal they want" by trying to take the focus off the issue and put it on things that happened a long time ago in the pasts of those who have evolved in their beliefs far beyond where these people are so deeply entrenched.

    A lot of misinformation about Big Cat Rescue will be quoted by them below, just to show the extent to which these people will go to try and cause us harm. To read all about us, visit About Us and follow the links from there. Some of these people have tried to discredit Big Cat Rescue by making accusations about our practices to The Association of Sanctuaries , the USDA and others. None of the allegations against us have been found to have any merit.

    The only person to give them any help, was Chris Hawes at Bay News 9 who had just run a story on our rezoning. She had tried to find someone who was against it, but all of our neighbors were for it, so she twisted and edited an interview with our next door neighbor to make it look like they were opposed. After the story ran our neighbors came to us and told us that she took what they had said, completely out of context, and pieced it together to make it look like they were opposed to us. The one place where I said, “You got me on that. I just don't know. It's not in the list,” was when she said, "You claim that you stopped breeding cats in 1997 but I have proof that you had caracal kittens born in 1998." When she showed me her "proof", it was a newsletter that said we thought that one of the caracals was pregnant, but we must have been wrong because there were no kittens after that time. If she had shown the tape from where she made the accusation through where I showed her that no kittens had been born the viewers would have seen that my statement was only reflective of the fact that I didn’t know how she could have proof that we had kittens when I knew we didn’t. She cut it to just that one statement to make it look like she had caught me at something, when in fact I was able to show her that she had not. Despite her claim that we never disclosed on the web site that some of the cats were born there in the early years, we have always linked those cats stories to our own history and evolution .

    We spoke with Jim Moore who was quoted in her story and he said he intended no harm to us and knew that we were not breeding on purpose after 1997 because he was there and saw that we were separating animals as quickly as funds would allow. We don't know why Chris Hawes seems to have such a vendetta against Big Cat Rescue. We suspect it is because of the wrath she incurred from people who know that exotic cats don't make good pets after she previously ran a story promoting hybrid exotics as pets. She had interveiwed us prior to running the story and we showed her all of the abandoned hybrids we have had to take in and informed her of all of the reasons why it never works out for the pet or the people, but she ran the cutesy-exotic-on-the-couch story anyway. She probably got a lot of negative mail from people who know better who often cite our website as the explanation of why wild animals shouldn't be promoted as pets.

    When Chris Hawes said that Vernon Yates and others we are trying to bar from breeding, selling and keeping tigers as pets had told her bad things about us, we invited Chris Hawes to look through all of our records to show the allegations to be false, but she chose instead to go with the story she had concocted with their help and did not indulge our request to show her the proof of our innocence. If you were to play the tape she took of the hour or more she interviewed on camera, you would see that over and over I offered to show her the truth, but that she didn't want to see it. She claimed to be using USDA documents as her source, but USDA doesn't keep records more than 3 years old, and the records she referred to were all dated prior to 1997. There was nothing in the old records that we have not freely admitted all along on our web site and on our tours. This was not investigative reporting or she would have determined the same thing that everyone else did; we were wrongly accused. In just one year since her story ran we have been featured in the press, in a positive light, more than 130 times! We have had more than 300 positive stories done on us in just past few years. Not one other negative story ever aired because everyone else knows better.

    Despite being tried and convicted on nothing more than gossip I don't hold any ill will toward Chris Hawes or Bay News 9. I was thinking in the aftermath how sad it would be to be her. Every day I am surrounded by people who love me, who share my vision and who are all working together to make the world a better place. My life is full of joy. Chris Hawes has probably never had a single day in her life that is as good as every day I enjoy and I can’t even imagine how sad a life that would be. When you focus on bad things you attract bad things into your life. While many of our supporters, who saw the show that is being distributed widely by those who breed and sell dangerous animals as pets, have contacted the station asking that she be fired, we did not encourage that and have not asked that she be reprimanded. Until she experiences an awakening of how good life can be, if you focus on the positive, she condemns herself.(You might note that it was one of the last stories she ever did for Bay News 9 and she is no longer working for any news provider in Florida)

    Resignation from Animal Advisory Commission

    On the above paragraph 3 you will find quotes from the The Association of Sanctuaries and the actual report from USDA on their investigation into the false allegations being made by the exotic pet owners. Just click on the links in that paragraph to view them. I found it interesting that in March Linda Hunnicutt (lindmonk) who listed at Publi.com as having a criminal record in bank and charity fraud was bragging that she was having me removed from the Animal Advisory Committee, three months before I knew anything about it, and her email suggests that she and the person she intended the email to, were sending multiple letters to pressure Commissioner Blair to have me removed.

    Please note that it specifically states that one purpose of effort with the reporter was to have me removed from the “commission board”, i.e. the Animal Advisory Committee.

    “----- Original Message -----

    From: lndmonk@aol.com

    To: monkeyyardsale@yahoogroups.com

    Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 3:11 PM

    Subject: Re: [monkeyyardsale] Caorle Baskins.

    In a message dated 3/10/06 3:06:36 PM Central Standard Time, lndmonk@aol.com writes:

    No Vernon didn't I did... with Vernons information..lol.... and with all the messages we have sent out, (you and me) she is being removed from the commission board and they will be doing a TV expose' on her next week.. the tv crew is out at Vernons now.. he keeps calling me and having me speak to the reporter on behalf of simply simian... so we are in the forefront anyway.... Gloria is the one that wanted the website.. she is our ace in the hole, a professional lobbyist.. doing a crack up job at it too.. and she is thinking we are angels as we put that site up for her.. she was supposed to send you a check for the cost a few days ago.. so when you get it that is what it is for... not a membership... from Gloria Johnson...

    I thought this was going to Karen please you guys keep this quiet... “

    As you can see, it has been their plan to use you to remove me from the Advisory Board since back in March when they fed Chris Hawes the misinformation she relied on for her article. Gloria Johnson is the person in the St. Pete Times article today called Cuddly Pet or Wild Animal? HERE

    The following seems to be circulating all over.

    On Behalf Of Raven Simons
    Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:59 PM
    To: EPOU@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [EPOU] FW: FL Animal Rights activist removed from Animal Advisory

    Hello all,

    I am asking an important favor of everyone. Please write a thank you letter to Mr. Brian Blair for removing Carole Lewis Baskin (Big Cat Rescue and Humane USA) from the Hillsborough County Animal Advisory Committee. Carole is having a fit at being removed. Mr. Blair needs to show community support on this decision.

    To all the bird people- This is the women that posted our names and address on her Humane USA website.

    To all the pet owners- I welcome anyone to attend the meetings with us. This group called the Animal Advisory committee are nuts. They are extreme in their views.

    Please feel free to forward this email to supportive individuals. We need as many letters as possible by Sunday 6/4/06. Anyone and everyone can write a letter, not just Hillsborough County people. This effects any animal owner. Counties tend to follow each other's lead.

    Animal rights activist do not have a place on an advisory committee. They have a personal agenda that is not in anyone's best interest, including the animals.

    Mr. Blair can be reached at Blair b@hillsboroughcounty.org . I am including the letter that I sent.

    Thank you,

    Lisa

    Dear Mr. Blair:

    I am writing to thank you for removing Carole Lewis Baskin from the Hillsborough County Animal Advisory Committee.

    I have been attending the Animal Advisory meetings. The committee is made up of animal rescue/ animal rights individuals and local veterinarians. Ms. Baskin is the Florida director of Humane USA , an animal rights group. I feel there should be individuals representing the pet community (groomers, kennel owners, dog trainers,ect.) on this advisory committee.

    The current Animal Advisory committee is outrageous in their proposals. They would like theHillsborough County ordinances to regulate the pet population and our ownership to an extreme. Without the balance of pet industry individuals, I feel that Hillsborough County will not be a pet friendly place to live. The pet industryprovides many jobs in our area andhas amultimillion dollar impact on our County. The medical community has also proven that pets improve the quality of our lives.

    The story on BayNews 9 about the fraudulent fund raising at Big Cat Rescue, which Ms. Baskin is the CEO, is of concern also. It makes you question her integrity.

    Thank you for taking the time to address this issue.

    Respectfully,

    Lisa Welch

    This is also being circulated through the email list of the Phoenix Exotics, a group who promote exotic pet ownership and whose abuse was documented in the API study. Please notice that they view the entire Committee as “nuts” and feel people who are concerned about animal welfare have no place on it. This link is an undercover investigation video into members of Phoenix Exotics http://www.api4animals.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=16&pos=0 It is well worth the time to watch to fully understand why these people are doing all they can to discredit me and Big Cat Rescue.

    See more on the resignation HERE

    Posts from Phoenix Exotics and Others

    We have listed information on those who seek to discredit Big Cat Rescue for two reasons:

    1. So that you can make your own determination as to their credibility and sincerity.

    2. In the hopes that you will say a silent prayer for them asking that they find peace and discover their inner beauty that will cause them to want to spread good will rather than gossip.

    In the posts below, you will see that these people appear to threaten my life, encourage others to try and discredit us, sow seeds of doubt and even try to cause us financial harm by getting the whole group to click repeatedly on our pay per click advertising so that we will be billed unfairly. They suggest contacting those who provide service to us and our supporters to try and poison them against us. We have not included it here, but on their chat group they discuss methods to violate the Lacey Act and smuggle exotics across state and federal borders. Despite all of the malicious intent on the part of the following people, who we will identify as best we can, since they hide behind email addresses, we do not have ill will toward them. We are all here on planet earth to learn our lessons and to grow from them. We are no judge of anyone and provide this so that you can make your own judgment.

    All of the typos, mis spellings and bad grammar of the original writers have been left in tact.

    Who are these people and why do they not want laws that would restrict the trade in dangerous exotic animals? Find out HERE

  • Blog post
  • 2 years ago
  • Views: 82

• Bhagavan Antle Bhagavan Antle

  • From: TheirVoice
  • Description:

    Bhagavan Antle

    AKA "Doc" Antle (but he's no intellectual)

    When Carole Baskin and Big Cat Rescue became known for trying to stop the trade in exotic cats as pets, Bhagavan Antle, who is often called Doc Antle a breeder of ligers, lions and tigers, began bashing her and Big Cat Rescue. There is no justification for inbreeding tigers to create the white coats and no excuse for cross breeding lions and tigers just because ignorant people will be to see a freak. Ligers and white tigers suffer painful birth defects that often kill them as youngsters, but for those in the business of having plenty of babies on hand, that is better for the exploiters.

    See an interactive online map of exotic cat owners . See people being stupid with big cats, endangering themselves and others HERE . See the awful conditions that many captive cats endure HERE .

    A liger is the result of breeding a male lion to a tigress. A tigon is the result of breeding a male tiger to a lioness. Since lions and tigers do not exist in the same areas, this is not something that happens in the wild. It is done in captivity by disreputable carnies to produce a freak that ignorant people will pay to see. These cats suffer from many birth defects and usually die young. Because ligers are usually larger than either parent, it also puts the tigress at great risk in carrying the young and may require C-section deliveries or kill her in the process. When the public quits paying to see these unfortunate creatures, the evil people responsible for breeding them will stop this inhumane practice.

    Watch a video below that was created by a teenage supporter of Big Cat Rescue who already understands, better than most adults, what the truth is behind the breeding and showcasing of ligers.

    type="text/javascript"> AC_AX_RunContent( 'width','425','height','355','src','http://www.you tube.com/v/-IzpVokx6O4&rel=1','type','application/ x-shockwave-flash','wmode','transparent','movie',' http://www.youtube.com/v/-IzpVokx6O4&rel=1' ); //end AC code // <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-IzpVokx6O4&re l=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-IzpVokx6O4&rel=1" mce_src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-IzpVokx6O4&amp;rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

    You can stop the abuse. Don't support places, like T.I.G.E.R.S. and Jungle Island, that breed ligers. Bhagavan Antle who calls himself Doc Antle , the person you will most often see promoting this shameful practice, has gone to great lengths to stop us and the brave young girl who created the video above, from letting you know the truth. Visit her YouTube site HERE and let her know you appreciate what she is doing to prevent the future breeding of ligers and tigons.

    When you see ligers in the news or on TV, write the station and let the reporters know the truth about hybrids. You can send 5 letters at once to the media of your choice through an online email system at CatLaws.com

    

    The following story attempts to make it sound like there could be some reason to breed lions and tigers for public amusement, but anyone who cares about animals knows that this is a despicable thing to do because the cats have to spend their lives in deprivation and confinement and are genetically so unhealthy that they usually die young. The ONLY reason anyone breeds ligers is to create a freak that simple minded people will pay to see.

    Ligers Make a "Dynamite" Leap Into the Limelight

    by: Maryann Mott August 5, 2005

    It's half lion, half tiger, and completely real. Now thanks to a cameo in the 2004 cult movie Napoleon Dynamite, the liger has leaped into the limelight, prompting fans to ask, What are they really like?

    The faintly striped, shaggy-maned creatures are the offspring of male lions and female tigers, which gives them the ability to both roar like lions and chuff like tigers-a supposedly affectionate sound that falls somewhere between a purr and a raspberry.

    Weighing in at about a thousand pounds (450 kilograms) each, they typically devour 50 pounds (23 kilograms) of raw meat in a meal.

    "For the most part they're really laid back," said Jason Hutcherson, vice president of Wild Animal Safari in Pine Mountain , Georgia . "They like to swim and play in the water."

    The drive-through wildlife park is believed to have the country's largest concentration of ligers, housing ten of the massive cats.

    Since 1999 the park has bred its male lion and female tiger many times, producing about 24 cubs.

    Not all of them have been healthy, though.

    "We've had 3 out of 24 that, for all practical purposes, were normal but developed as they grew older some kind of neurological disorder," Hutcherson said.

    Autopsies didn't reveal what caused the cubs to develop "head shakes," so park staff "chalked it up to a genetic defect," Hutcherson said.

    Accredited zoos frown on the practice of mixing two different species and have never bred ligers, says Jane Ballentine, a spokesperson for the American Zoo and Aquarium Association, based in Silver Spring , Maryland.

    "Keeping the two species separate has always been standard procedure," she said.

    Wild Ligers?

    

    Long before fans heard Napoleon claim that the liger is "pretty much my favorite animal," there have been rumors of the hybrid's existence in the wild.

    Lion-tiger mating occurs in captivity. But it does not happen in the wild, probably for the same reason humans do not breed with gorillas or chimps.

    "Crossing the species line" does not generally occur in the wild, because "it would result in diminished fitness of the offspring," said Ronald Tilson, director of conservation at the Minnesota Zoo in Apple Valley.

    Geography is another obstacle to natural lion-tiger mating. Wild tigers mainly inhabit Asia, whereas the lion's current natural habitat is almost entirely in Africa .

    The Gir National Forest in India is the only place in the world where tiger and lion ranges overlap, fueling speculation that wild ligers roamed the area hundreds of years ago.

    Tilson doesn't believe it.

    "This would be highly improbable, because the Gir forest is really very dry and not optimal tiger habitat," he said.

    A Liger Named Patrick

    Perched on the edge of the Mojave Desert near Los Angeles , California , a lone liger, named Patrick, lives at Shambala Preserve, which bills itself as "a haven for endangered exotic big cats."

    "The interesting thing about these animals is that they have the best qualities of the tiger and the best of the lion," said movie actress and conservationist Tippi Hedren, who has run Shambala since 1972. "Those qualities manifest themselves in the fact that they like to be in the water [a tiger trait] and are very social [a lion trait]."

    Many of the cats at the 80-acre (32-hectare) sanctuary are orphans or castoffs from circuses, zoos, and private owners who could no longer care for the animals.

    

    The 800-pound (360-kilogram) liger was kept in such a small cage that his hind-leg muscles had started to atrophy, said Hedren, who starred in Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds.

    Patrick's compound at Shambala allows him plenty of room for exercise. A stream runs through his compound, so his tiger half can play in the water or his lion half can stay out of it, whichever he chooses.

    Liger in the Hills

    Spirit of the Hills Wildlife Sanctuary in Spearfish, South Dakota , recently acquired a liger named Samson and 48 other big cats after federal authorities closed a Minnesota wildlife facility.

    "Everyone who comes wants to see Samson," said Trevor Smith, an environmental biologist and sanctuary board member.

    The four-and-a-half-year-old hybrid tips the scales at over a thousand pounds (over 450 kilograms), and eats 30 to 50 pounds (14 to 23 kilograms) of raw meat every other day.

    

    The sanctuary-whose mission is to educate people about wild animals and emphasize that they don't make good pets-has seen a surge in visitors since Samson's arrival in June.

    Much of the public's curiosity about the liger stems from Napoleon Dynamite, Smith said.

    Smith worries that Samson is "becoming too much of a freak show."

    If Samson had his way, Smith said, he'd sleep away the day inside, away from public view.

    "We've had a huge ethical debate at the sanctuary on whether or not we should lock him out of his shed," Smith said. "But at the same time, he's why the visitors are coming."

    Tigons and Ti-tigons

    A tigon is the product of a male tiger and female lion. They receive growth inhibitor genes from both parents and so are smaller than either of them. They show much the same coloration of ligers except they sometimes have more distinct stripes. As with ligers the females are fertile whereas the males are sterile. They have the same vocalizations as liger, a sort of cross between lion and tiger. Ti-tigons speak tiger. Tigons are now rarer than ligers, but in the late 1800's/early 1900's tigons were more common.

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